Ottawa Fiero Club Forum

	Limit [/b]	Reading [/b]
HC ppm [/b]	106	82
CO % [/b]	0.59	0.68 [/color]
NO ppm [/b]	1164	1445 [/color]

I "opted out" of sitting at the shop for another hour and spending another $140 for an in-depth diagnostic test.  Apparently however doing that also nullifies a vehicle's eligibility for the $200 repair cost limit which applies to this area at the moment.  ???

Whatever...  as far as I understand it, high NOx is most often caused by high combustion temperatures i.e. a malfunctioning EGR system.  Given that I overhauled the EGR system not long ago, I'm looking elsewhere.  High CO % is I think most often the result of a mixture on the rich side of the scale...

Still have to do more research, but at the moment I'm leaning toward a new O2 sensor an replacing the 18-year-old boat anchor with a relatively free-flowing, 3-way cat.

Comments?  Suggestions?

From my experience with e-tests there is two possible solutions
1) as all readings were high I would replace the cat and also the O2 sensor as they are relatively cheap to buy.
2)replace antique inadequate power train with newer series II 3800 SC engine and e-tests are a breeze.
Just my opinion. Dan

lol ok do you have some to lend? lol

I like it when someone agrees with me.  Usually means that I'm not completely loopy.



I hear keeping the new power train in one piece is...  challenging for certain types of drivers however.   :P

All in good time...  I made myself a promise when I bought the car that I wouldn't dive in to an engine swap until the 2.8 dies, or I finish the rest of the work first.  It's still up in the air as to which event will take place first.    :)

Gotta love Dan, anything more work than replacing a sensor, just swap the engine, I love it.

Ahhh nuts.  Meant to start pricing out catalytic converters while at work today, bu it can't remember what the pipe diameter is on the stock exhaust system (at the cat's inlet & outlet).

Anyone have this information handy?  I did some quick poking about online but didn't find what I was after...

...I found it.  1 7/8".

I still like my idea better replace that tired old 2.8 with a healthy stronger 3800SC, works for me. There might even be enough axles left out there for both of us. Dan

oh man...stupid e-tests! no way my car is going to pass!

Anyway....just pipe in some PURE oxygen into the exhaust stream to dilute the results....and hope nothing blows up!

oh..and if need be...here are some prices

NGK O2 Sensor = 88 bucks + tax
MagnaFlow High Flow Cat = 80 bucks + tax (2.0" in/out Dia. up to 3.0" in/out dia)

Its not that Difficult to pass the emissions as long as all your emmisions equipment is functioning. Just make sure its HOT, with a new o2, and cat, and it should pass. If my 300k Saturn that goes through a quart of oil every couple weeks can make it, it cant be that bad!!

Wouldn't the big green bottle, regulator, and pressure fittings be rather obvious though?  ;)

I can't help but wonder if that's what most of these "pass your e-test in a bottle" products are that I keep seeing on shelves.  Nothing other than a highly oxygenated fuel additive.  I saw one the other day which stated that it should not be used more than four times within the same year.   :o



Thanks, but a Bosch O2 Sensor from CTC is about $45, so there.   :P

...and a new cat is on the way up from Rodney Dickman.

After pricing out (locally) stainless steel high-flow cats, and additional s/s pipe required to make up the length, Rodney's cat is only marginally more costly, even when including the currency exchange & customs fees.

...and I don't have to frig about with measuring, welding, or having various pipes expanded to fit over others.  Cut off old cat, trim off slag, clamp new one on.  Get a wrench on the irriratingly unreachable O2 sensor while the old monster cat is out of the car too.


On a side note, I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't have paid for the $140 diagnostic, plus the part & labour cost to have the inevitable O2 sensor replaced.  That would have put me just over $200, and I'd be eligible for that repair cost limit "conditional pass" nonsense.  Live 'n learn I guess...   ::)

can't speak from experience (Fiero passed, others I ***cough*** just got em) but most of the "e-test" in a bottle things work. Just ask my buddy with the 340k 'teggy with so many holes in his floor and he went thru 2 bottles a week in 10w30! for those who dont know, all that is in these bottles is highly oxeginated (spl?) fuel...kinda like ethanol light if you catch my drift 8)

Ok I'll bite.  What the heck is a 'teggy  ???   Integra?

Acura Integra....so yes

For sure they would notice the HUGE tank of o2 but get it done at Canadian Tire and they would have no idea what the hell it was for!

And I'm glad to hear you can get a bosch o2 sensor for your car FOR 45 BUCKS...go domestic...stupid imports and their stupid import part prices...

FYI = I would not have made any money off you if you had of bought anyway....just want everyone to know that I'm not a sales man here...I get reasonable price on car parts and I'm just sharing the wealth!

you would be supprised how an injector flush changes everything! better mist = better burn! ;)  my brother can get one done for $50.00  better then the usual $150.00 :P

i'd be up for that.....

Already thought of that, thanks.

Though I went the cheap route.  ;)  Two bottles of fuel injector cleaner, each which claims to be good for up to a 60L tank, both tossed into the 35L Fiero tank.

Though likely not as thorough as a shop job, it made a heck of a difference...

I just pulled my injectors off and threw them in a bowl of residue free cleaner. (for circuit boards)

They worked fine after!

I beleive that the injector cleaner bottle are hogg wash. :P  Just as effective as peeing in the gas tank. *lol*

I good purge runse pure detergent through the engine. Really hardcore stuff. (engine cannot be put under load or she goes bye bye.. ) ad as the injectors tick, they free up all the buidup inside. also cleans out the regulator, valves and upper cyl heads.

a good investment every 50K.  

*** Warning! do not go crazy on this stuff! if you do it every oil change it wil eat your seals!

Cheers!
Eric

if you peed in my gas tank...my fuel pump would pressureize it to 48 PSI....feed it to my engine where it would be turned into piss steam and shot out the exhaust pipe!

Unless there was ONLY piss in there.....I would have a problem then!

Of course the steam would be getting shot out of the exhaust pipe under pressure inflicted upon it by the piss-tons.   ;D   :insert pic of Don ducking and running like hell here:

ha ha ha...piss-tons

thats rich!

I am confused. Why did not having the diagnostic and repair done at the testing shop void the $200 limit?
Since there are certified repair shops  that don't test I assumed that you could go to one of them , get $200 of emission related repairs and take the receipt into MOT if the re-test failed. Why should the testing stations have a monoply on the repairs subject to the limit? What's the point of the non testing shops getting certified? If it has to pass without $ limit when they do the work then what;s the certification mean? Any shop can repair it, certified or not, if it has to pass after their repair. Getting certifed costs the shop 10-15K$

When I went for my E-Test, in order to get that $200 limit thing, they told me I had to get a $100 Diagnostic done there, then have What ever repaired in that remaining $100.  I told them to shove it, got an Aftermarket cat for $80 and piped it in, passed with flying colours.

Because that's how the system works, plain and simple.  I suspect that only the pencil pushers behind the Drive Clean (http://www.driveclean.com/) program know the reasons why.

Given the age of the car I knew with 90% certainty that I would need a new cat in order to pass, but waited until after the first test in the hopes that the $200 repair cost limit would apply should anything further be needed.  At the time, I was unaware of this "feature" which requires you to give the testing shop more money AT THE TIME OF YOUR TEST in order to be elegible.

I should have checked with the Drive Clean web site first, instead of going in with partial information & assumptions.  It is clearly stated here (http://www.driveclean.com/help/rcl_faq5.html) that do-it-yourself repairs are not eligible for the Repair Cost Limit.  It goes further, actually.  In order to be elegible for the Repair Cost Limit, all testing and emissions-related repairs must be performed by an accredited Drive-Clean facility.

I suspect that the motivation behind this is to avoid the situation of a backyard mechanic performing "repairs" which may not improve tailpipe emissions, but still doing $200 worth of work and managing to walk away with a dirty engine.  It removes any burden of proof, or contestability as to whether or not the non-certified mechanic's repairs were emissions-related or not.

My personal opinion is that most testing facilities love this feature.  You want to drive your car, right?  Most people don't want to spend $1000 in repairs to do so, right?  So they happily let the shop do their thing, and walk away $200 and the cost of two tests poorer instead.  Will I grit my teeth and let the frickin' shop take more money from me for their precious diagnostic test the next time one of our vehicles fails?  If the RCL has not been abolished when that time comes, then the answer is most definitely "yes."   >:(

At least given the age of Fieros, and the date at which the tailpipe snorting started, most of us will only have to go through one test, perhaps two.

Don't get me wrong--I have nothing against trying to minimize the crap that goes back out into the environment, but my appreciation for the way in which it is currently being executed with respect to vehicles is minimal at best.   :(

Quote " It goes further, actually.  In order to be elegible for the Repair Cost Limit, all testing and emissions-related repairs must be performed by an accredited Drive-Clean facility."
That was the point I was trying to make. My GM dealer is an accredit drive clean repair facility (cost them $15k) but they don't do testing as that would cost ($100K). So  I still assume that they can do $200 of repairs and if I take the car back to the test center and it fails I would get a conditional pass. I will my test center and as the question. I realize that any do-it-yourself repairs would not count in any repair limit.

from driveclean site
"You may qualify for the Repair Cost Limit (RCL). This only requires that you spend up to a predetermined amount on emissions related repairs to qualify for a conditional pass to renew your vehicle registration. A diagnosis of emissions system faults, cost estimates and any actual repairs must be performed at an accredited Drive Clean Facility, to qualify for the RCL. "

It does not say at the same facility that did test.

"The RCL does not apply if your have the repairs done elsewhere, or do them yourself. The limit also does not apply to replacement of a missing gas cap or catalytic converter, non emissions related repairs or repairs to correct a vehicle's smoking problem. '

So in your case the convertor is not covered so it was academic

"Before any work begins on your vehicle: Verify that the facility is accredited to do Drive Clean Repairs if you want to use the repair cost limit. Obtain a written estimate. Request that all emission-related repairs (new and used parts, labour, diagnostics) be listed separately from any non-emission repair estimates so you can identify the emission related items that may qualify for the RCL.
Once repaired, your vehicle must be re-tested. If you fail the re test, you can obtain a conditional pass which will allow the registration to be renewed for a two year period. The maximum fee for a re-test is $17.50, plus applicable taxes. You are allowed up to two re-tests at $17.50 each after repairs, as long as they are performed at the facility that performed the initial test."

I think this reference to repairs at the testing facility gets the next test at 1/2 price. I assume that if you had accredited repairs done elsewhere then you go back to the test facility you pay the full 37.50 again but failing and having the repair  bill from the other place you could still get your sticker at MOT

Found the details. If the testing garage told you that you had to have the max 200 done there then they are just trying to make extra money. This section from the driveclean site clearly states that you can go elsewhere. for  the RCL repairs I think in most people's cases they have a facility that they trust maybe more than the testing centre

To take advantage of the RCL, your emissions tests, repair estimates and actual repairs must be provided by accredited Drive Clean Facilities. However, you do not need to have the diagnostic or repairs performed at the facility that provided the initial emissions test. If you use another facility, the repair technician will complete and sign a repair data form once the diagnostic and repairs within the RCL are completed. You will require the signed repair data form in order to have the vehicle re-tested. If you want to take advantage of the reduced fee rate for re-tests after repairs, those re-tests must be performed at the facility that provided the initial test.

Possibly an error on my part.  I was typing from memory the conversation I had with the testing facility nearly a week ago.   ::)



Not quite.  My cat isn't missing, it's 18 years old and horribly inefficient by today's standards.



Actually the testing facility I went to still offers the 1/2 price on subsequent (limited to two I think) tests, regardless of who/what/where does the work.  They do however need proof of what repairs were performed, for which sales receipts are apparently sufficient.



Note that all this mentions having the repairs performed at another facility, by a repair technician.  I imagine that "facility" and "repair technician" as used by the Drive Clean program refer to an accredited Drive Clean facility and/or technician.  I see nothing mentioned anywhere in the literature which leads me to believe that those who prefer to perform their own repairs are elegible for a conditional pass under the repair cost limit.  In fact, I see quite the opposite.

More appropriately, I should have mentioned in my earlier posting that by choosing to do the repairs myself, rather than have a D.C. facility perform them, have I lost my eligibility for the repair cost limit.

Got some news for you guys. I was a real bad ass on the road last year and have been through court a million times so I know the MTO system in and out!

If you cant pass your e-test you can

1) scrap the car
2) Spend up to 200 to get it repaired
3 just pay 250 and get a conditional pass...your car never even gets tested. You will have to pass next time but by then you can figure something out

oh..and this will piss you off....to get your car up to the 200$ repair limit...the following dont count towards the limit

- cats
- mufflers
- pipes
- EGR work
- PCV work
- diagonstics testing

once all those are replaced you can start working towards the 200 limit!

SCAM!

For those of you who have never seen them side-by-each^*
Shiney new one above, OEM one below.

Note the size difference 18 years of technology makes.


^*Pardon the Newfie expression.  I have a Newfie wife, Newfie in-laws, and watched the Ron James show on CBC Friday night.  ;)

You tell me.

The light at the end of the tunnel is just your average 60 watt bulb in a work light.   ::)

No, I didn't do it.  Prior to now, I haven't touched the exhaust system in the two years since I purchased the car.

I guess I won't have to worry about proper disposal of any hazardous materials when I pitch it...   ;D

Still like my idea better. Replace old worn out antique equipment with newer more powerfull cleaner burning more efficient 3800SC. Works for me. Okay minus a couple of bad axles. Dan

I'm just gonna wait and work on my baby till she turns 20. Then she doesn't need to take that stupid e-test anymore.

Be careful with this--you can't escape as easily as you think.

Do you have the car plated and on the road now?  Do you require an e-test before your next sticker renewal?

If your answer is "yes" to all of the above, than contrary to what you might think you are still required to pass an e-test before your next renewal, regardless of the car's age.  I thought to go the same route as what you mentioned above, actually.  Drive Clean & the M.T.O. are smarter than that though.  You can't escape a previously required e-test by keeping the car off the road until it is age-exempt.

I can't remember the exact text off-hand, and am not in the mood to go digging for it this morning.  An approximate paraphrase of what I unearthed however stated that "if your vehicle is less than 20 years old and requires an e-test before your next sticker renewal, it will still require that (one) e-test in order to renew the sticker after it turns 20.  It will however require no further e-tests for subsequent sticker renewals."

If however you currently do not require an e-test before your next sticker renewal, and she turns 20 before then, you should be ok.  I think.

If you haven't verified your particular situation with Drive Clean and/or M.T.O., I would do so now rather than just sit & wait.  It might save you some pain later.

-d.