Ottawa Fiero Club Forum

well with THAT deep breath I decide to start a 'real' thread on what I am doing; it will be off and on again, and might be restricted or limited in some of the comments or info etc etc and there is a reason for that (!?!)..... but right now it looks like there is a REAL possibility that I can start to make serious progress on my car in the next 6 months now. 

That is a BIG deal.  Life; family; career (and busy!) wife; 3 kids in or approaching post secondary education; all the home-related stuff; running my full time business (going on 7 yrs now); trying to stay sane; (fit? what is that???) ALL of that has tapped me for a LOT longer than I figured when I began this trek about 2 yrs ago.  But it wasn't TWO years ago....... it was in 1980 that I decided I wanted to build a mid engine kit car.  It just sort of took me this long to get around to it ...... :o
Along with everything else....   
I think I can start to put something up and in a reasonable fashion, keep at it in a way so that there is fairly regular progress.

The subject, for those who don't know or haven't guessed, is an 85 based ferrari 308 kit.  It was ...ummm..... 'complete' when I bought it and brought it back a bit over 2 yrs ago.  It suffered from a LOT of very very poor workmanship; a LOT of out and out SHODDY work and short cuts; a number of things wrong or broken or missing; etc etc etc.  But I figured that I had an idea what I was getting into.  Owning and keeping about 45 to 50 cars running over my 'driving life' so far has to teach me SOMEthing..... :o

But it was a starting point.  It would seem that by happy circumstance, (perhaps) the 'inactive' state the car was in had resulted in it being laid up for long periods of time.  It has almost NO rust anywhere.  The body kit is showing stress cracking in a number of places but I have looked at the ones I can get at and feel that these areas can be properly reinforced.  I have confidence in what I can do and I will sub out the work I can't.  I am willing to put in the money it takes to get what I want and I have no delusions that I can or will do this on a shoe string.  I expect to sink 10 to 15 K into this to get it the way I want.

My goal is to build a car that exceeds the stock Ferrari 308 specs in every way (that is of concern to me, anyway) - that is, acceleration, stopping and cornering.  Note that comfort isn't mentioned.  This thing is going to ride like a brick.  I know that.  It is NOT a daily driver by any stretch.  Creature comforts are not a big requirement here.  I would LIKE to do some auto-crossing and hopefully lapping days at some tracks too; all to see just how good a job I really did.  The 308, by the way, is a VERY appropriate kit for the fiero; there is only a fraction of an inch difference between the two.  It was manufactured in the same year range (more or less) as the fiero, and the first batch of them (about 500 IIRC) were in fact fiberglass!!!!  (like mine!)  The engines were transverse v8's.   Not longitudinal as would be thought....   Later ones were 4 valve/cyl.   So it is a good car to 'replicate' a bit.

After a lot of bouncing around on things I decided on the 3.4 dohc engine out of the Z34 (GM) cars.  It is a V6; (obviously) 3.4 liter that was produced in (more or less) 2 versions from 91 thru 97 inclusive. It is a high winding engine that has a dubious reputation for reliability and a number of other things but I have spent a lot of time looking into it and that is my choice.  From 91 to 93 ONLY..... it was available with a heavy duty Getrag 284 5 spd trans that was installed in Luminas, Grand Prix's and Olds Cutlass Supreme Int'l's (as an option) - most were autos of course.  Redline was 7,000 from the factory and the manual version was rated at 220 hp.  Autos were detuned a tad to about 210 to 'protect' the trans as the story goes.

Once the drive train was selected, I decided (getting to know myself a bit over time) that it would be very shrewd of me to have better brakes than the stock fiero if I was going to push it and autocross it and have a better engine etc etc.  I have HAD similar brakes to the fiero in the past and they didn't impress me with...... well, anything.  So brakes became a priority BEFORE putting in a faster engine. 

At the same time, I was cooking up the 'handling' details.  I have long been a fan of racing and racing technology and construction and all that.  Formula 1 rules!!   I bought some more books and read some specific info on frame construction and geometry.  I looked into the car and various boards and what people were doing and decided that I was going to do what I wanted all along..... even if nobody had given it a try (that I could find, anyway).  I was going to put in unequal length A arms ALL around.  Yup. even on the rear end where there were struts........  (it gets better.... LOL)
So THAT became the task for the next (almost!!) two years. 

The body kit is about 4 inches wider than the stock fiero at the front and about 5 inches wider at the rear, so .....along with everything else, I decided that I wanted my wheels and tires to 'finish' fairly flush with the body lines for optimum appearances.  More considerations for geometry and parts and so on. 

Anyway.
I am going to start my thread with this post and add to it (or get logged off!) with pix etc.

Again..
I need a disclaimer.....
I started posting some stuff I did some time ago and got some stunningly ignorant emails from people - let's just say from elsewhere - about doing ie "brake work" using 'soldered connections' or something equivalently stupid.  After a few of those I stopped posting.  So I might not post everything, and regardless, this is what I have done ONLY.  It is NOT a guideline or a recommendation OF ANY SORT for anyone to follow.  Any injury, mishap or result of anyone attempting to replicate any of the work INDICATED on this thread shall be solely at that person's own risk, peril and responsibility.
BRAKE, FRAME, STEERING-RELATED AND OTHER CHASSIS WORK SHOULD ONLY BE PERFORMED BY A QUALIFIED AND APPROVED VEHICLE TECH AND THEN INSPECTED AND APPROVED BY A PROVINCE OR STATE-CERTIFIED AGENCY BEFORE THE VEHICLE IS PUT ON THE ROAD AGAIN AFTER THE WORK IS COMPLETED.

Geez, I hope that is enough. 
There are sadly some either stupid and/or too-cheap people out there who think they can do modifications AND cut corners.  We all see them all the time.  Sorry.  This is NOT REALISTIC and if you think that way, your ignorance is dangerous to yourself and others.

so on with the thread.  and, I guess, is anyone interested?...........


 

so where am I at?
I have had the car up on blocks for most of the time I have owned it as I investigated what would/wouldn't work. Lots more doesn't work than DOES......lol

but I have:
- my 3.4 dohc engine with 5 speed and clutch and ECM and wiring harness;
- a spare 3.4 motor for parts/rebuild if/when necessary;
- my 16x8 IROC rims (match my modified hubs); more later...
tires to get my going but more importantly for measuring etc etc as I go
- all my shocks and springs for coil overs all around (shorties; better get more padding in the seats!);
- most of the parts I need for my suspension and brake upgrades; will list them as I go;
-  MIG welder (fixed, now, Don.... ::) );
- metal bender (not a tube bender) but handy;
- metal band saw; what a GREAT tool!!
- propane heater for winter work;
- carbon monoxide alarm to go with the above!! LOL
- industrial size drill press; another great tool;
- lots of hand tools and power tools;

so I think I am pretty well equipped and ready to make some progress now.

as a bit of background, I haven't exactly spent the last 2 yrs sitting still; I have done TONS of research and testing and playing with various scenarious and prototype suspension setups and finally am ready to go.  (time is always going to be the issue....)

The big IFFFFF
is that IF I get busy (ie with paying work) then I have to do that.  No big surprise there.  My business cycles and I can't turn down work when it comes along.  But that is not going to stop things now I don't think.

The car in the sig pic, by the way, is the exact car that I have.   I am going to be lowering it a bit and putting 16" wheels on it.  The wheels you see are gone; but I think the IROC rims, with the proper 're' finish will look similar enough to keep the 'authenticity' of the car.

More to follow.

and to put a bit of a sequence on things (altho a number of items will always be underway in SOME way at any given time).

Front suspension: My big immediate goal is to get the front suspension finished to the point of supporting the car so it can be towed from the rear.
I am currently having overlength (1 5/8" longer) control arms made up at Johnson Welding; Bob (the owner  ;) ) is a long time hot rodder and custom car fabricator and is extremely capable; no issue there.  He has started and may have a tacked up set for me by mid next wk to do a final fit and check.
Once we have that sorted out I will fit the shocks for mounting tabs and get them mounted.  I still have most of the cutting and removal to do on the drivers side for this.
I have to widen the steering rack but that is about 95% done now; got overlength inner tie rods and had them machined to match the stockers.  I only need one new boot for now.  I need to talk to Don G about the rack tho; it isn't the smoothest when I crank it thru its range and want to see what his experience has been.

Left Rear Frame Section: I need to get the car down to Johnson Welding to install this piece.  It has to be a PERFECT mirror image of the right side and I need a better setup than my garage to do this.  I am HOPING ??? to get the car there during the Christmas slowdown.
Ihave to manufacture most, not all, of the frame pieces etc for this side.  The right rear is DONE.  :D 
I need to get 2 new S10 wheel bearing assy's and get them drilled to .580" and have my new Moroso 1/2" studs pressed in.  I was trying to avoid doing custom work on replacement parts, but I don't see how I can avoid this.  The root of the problem is that when you go with a slip on brake rotor (Lebaron - a la the "Zettner" brake upgrade) there isn't enough stud sticking out thru the wheels I have.  And I don't like that.  Not if I am going to be abusing the wheels.... ;D

Brakes: all around.  Got to manufacture brake caliper mounting brackets and install.  I don't see that as hard to do; just time consuming.  I will replace ALL the brake lines; about 1/2 of them are not confidence-inspiring anyway.  I will replace the M/C with a truck M/C as I have a lot more volume in the new system.  I am following a prescribed and reportedly tested method on this; if it needs 'tuning' later I will do that.  I will put on a new e-brake cable and all the hardware; connect it and adjust the rear brakes.

Then.... the engine swap begins.  The 3.4 with all the electrical issues.  But again, it is a prescribed swap; lots of documentation.  I will run into snags with the 284; seems like nobody uses it due to its rarity.  And I have to figure out the shifter.  And cables.  But I am sure there is a way.

Then some misc items come to mind like put in the alum rad, put the battery up front, mount the Z34 ECM inside where the fiero one was; all new guages (right now I am not sure what way I will go on that) etc etc.

So lots to do but it is not impossible once I get this suspension and frame stuff done.

I hurt my back about a wk ago and it has cost me a bit of time but I had machine work going on while resting up.  Got some other parts figured out etc.  So not really lost time.

So that is the general plan, in 'general' sequence....
 ;D

Rock on dude.

Aaron

.

thanks, Aaron.
obviously the site is back up.  More than I can say for my digital camera....
And I have been off my feet for most of the past wk after hurting my back last sunday.
But progress anyway; maybe not quite as much as I would like but still something.

I was wondering whether I should bother putting this up on this site or not as it is a kit car too, but then decided I am doing the big brakes; some suspension stuff; front battery; engine swap, all new gauges and other stuff, so that is all directly fiero (or at least fiero-CUSTOMIZING) related.  So unless I get complaints, I will post it here.

this week I hope to get my 'tacked-up' longer control arms back for a test fit and try to get my camera cooperating again.  Oh yeah.  Do some PAYING work, too...... O0
If the control arms look good then they are a GO and I get cracking on other stuff.

I have to verify that the new sleeves (for my poly bushings) are sized ok; I asked him to undersize them a tad for a better interference fit with the bushing.  Will check that tonite and get back to him tomorrow so he can keep moving.
that's it for sunday nite.

i cant wait to hear more, seeing the car in real life shows alot of work has been done, i hope it all works out

and pictures would be great :D

well it LOOKS (  ::) ) like I may have time in the next 2-4 wks to actually make serious progress on it.
And yes; lots of pix and explanations in with it.  This has been 2 yrs in the thought process but over 20 yrs prior, so it has been building momentum all that time...
so thanks and keep watching; there will be something every week.

I see now why guys say "is anyone watching this thread?".....
they simply want to know if it is worth posting or not.
I will try to make it entertaining and interesting.

and REGULAR.  Hmm. sounds like a laxative.
maybe even GARY will watch it then LOL..... ;D
(another barb thrown....)
 :D

Keep it coming!   O0

hi Don
it actually IS nice to know that someone is reading; after looking thru thousands of threads on PFF and 60-v6 and kitcarforum and W body and etc etc etc I have an idea why guys say that; the intent is to spread info and be helpful and you simply want to know if that is happening.

Part of the reason I didn't go out to the mtgs for the longest time cause I didn't have anything to add or contribute but now maybe I will. 

I am also thinking already that I might split this into several threads; there is SO SO SO much to do that a single thread might be too huge and unwieldy.  What do you think? 
1.   Suspension upgrade/alteration etec etc; doing stuff that hasn't been done ANYwhere that I have seen.....  involves the wider track and everything that THAT means....
2.   Brake upgrade all around etc etc etc.  Doing some stuff that others haven't done (that I can find);
3.   Engine swap; done before but almost NOone using the Lumina Getrag 284 trans.  Also in conjunction with a suspension change (Chev S-10 rear whl bearings etc);
4.   Various other stuff; guages swapped in; racing seats; bigger wheels/tires; all the elect that is part of 3, above, new rad and mods; I am thinking about doing SOMEthing about the headlight issue but not sure what yet; and SOMEwhere down the line a potential turbo.... but that is a long way off right now.  I have my hands full.

Comments?  Anyone?  Maybe that is the best idea.
input welcome here.
gp

My next large project will be the brakes. Will be eyeing your post for insite.  Keep 'er coming.

Well Brian
I MAY split it off into various different threads simply because there is so much to do that someone who is only interested in, ie, brakes, won't want to wade thru all the other muck.
But a quickie for you just so you know where I am going with it (brakes, that is).
I am putting on 13" directional vette rotors on the front; will have them cross drilled only I think; with Wilwood Dynalite II's and a decent street pad.  I realize that the Dynalites are not 'dustcapped' but I have talked to a lot of stock car guys who use them (on bigger heavier cars and LEAN on them!) and use them in the DIRT and they have no probs as long as you keep them clean.  As my car will NOT be a daily driver don't think that will pose a problem.
I will need to come up with a custom mounting bracket but that is not a prob.
REARS: I am going to do the so-called Walt Zettner upgrade; Lebaron 11.25" rotors with Caddy calipers; they retain the e-brake and so are street legal.  Ordinary camaro pads fit these, by the way....  (GM product... chuckle)
They have to be swapped from their intended sides as the fiero 'pulls' on the ebrake from the rear instead of from the front but again I don't see that they will be a prob.

I already have all these parts except for the ebrake cable (avail in stainless; I may look at that) and the caliper mounting brackets; (have to be fabbed); so it is just a matter of time to do it.

The rotors (front) DO fit inside my 16" wheels.

fyi
-gp

well a bit more movement/progress and some GOOD NEWS too!
checked my poly bushings in the proposed new control arm sleeves; the bottom ones were a tad too tight so I took them back to Johnson Welding and relayed the info to them; they are going to turn out another 5 thou from the sleeve and they can get to work on the rest.  The upper bushings were fine.

Took my steering rack out to Axle Automotive in the Fenton Rd Industrial park and talked to Craig; he remembered me from last yr.... :o  !! and they checked my rack and said it was fine!!! but you can't get a replacement 'boot' for the longer end of the rack ; the end with the connection for the steering dampener; he suggested  just removing the dampener and putting the ordinary boot on that end as well.  Je also told me that my 'custom' CV joints (that he made up a yr ago... ::)  ) will bolt right onto the Lumina axles I will be using.  So a FREE trip.... (THEY don't happen too often!)

Removed the inner tie rod ends from my rack on the wknd; it is a good thing I looked into them anyway..... even tho the rack is in good shape and the boots were fine; no holes, splits or patches of any sort...  this is what one of the ends looked like...

and the ball joint was RUSTY inside too (not just disgusting on the outside...); so it was a useful exercise checking them out.

Can't speak for any one else but this is one thread I plan on reading as it goes along. People helping people what a concept, free info not the expensive kind most shops try to sell. Also helps to know its coming from someone who knows what he's doing not some unknown stranger. Dan 

thx Dan
we shall SEE if I know what I am doing or not as this goes along........maybe I will be the one supporting the shops!!LOL!!

the inner tie rod ends were being replaced anyway.  Anyone here driving their car WITHOUT the steering dampener?  What are your impressions????

anyway
here is the before and after of the stock (shorter) and replacement (longer) inner tie rods for the rack (to match my longer control arms).  First pic shows the stock units; Fiero and one from the stock Dodge truck (small one) and other Dodge products with rack and pinion.  The end of the new one has to be machined to match the fiero one of course.....
the fiero one is the top in the second pic....

and after getting good ole Rick at ImcoTools in Gloucester to do a bit of magic for me....
(he really made an exact copy......it is SO nice to work with people who enjoy what they do...!!)

(the fiero one, on the right, is the beat-up one....)

and the 2nd pic is my two new longer, machined tie rods with a bunch of stuff.....
the new rack boots (two identical ones) and my new 1/2"x3" Moroso wheel studs; Rick cut them back a bit as required and pressed them into my newly RE-turned (as in turned down again..... rolleyes) hub assemblies.... so the front hubs are READY.....

also shows my new proposed 'sleeves' from Bob Johnson at Johnson Welding; the guy who is making my new longer control arms.  I had these test fitted with my poly bushings this AM and he is going to trim them a bit inside dia., then go ahead with the first control arm set so I can test fit it.  Maybe later this week with luck!!
Last is my new acorn style lug nuts...... nice big studs and nuts to hold things together and help minimize my thoughts of a wheel flying by at highway speeds...... :-\

Well I am sitting waiting for my control arms; AND it is kinda cold out there...AND I had to actually make a few bucks today....
but
I am going to try to post a file on here; not sure if it will work (windows metafile so maybe)
to show what my goal is with all this front end business.
The fiero has good ole Armstrong steering; nuthin wrong with that, but a lot of kitters seem to go with big offsets on their wheels AND/OR spacer plates and other things to try to get the wheels finishing out where they like.
this will have the effect of increasing the scrub radius and thus the effort to steer as well as a number of other issue.

 I am going to try to optimize this; I have heard all kinds of stories about it is ideal to have ZERO and others saying you want a BIT, but I can't really think or imagine a reason to WANT scrub radius..... so I am going for zero.

now if this pic will load it will show how the combo of my custom hubs and spindles should help this situation.


ah darn.  .....wmf files not allowed.  I will have to see if I can convert it to one of the preferred formats.  My OLD version of autocad would do it easy!!!!  Newer NOT EQUAL TO better.......

try THIS!!
ok; now I know how; editted to downsize the pic.

Yes, we are reading along,  O0

There are bound to be people interested in the bracketry for the rear brakes.  Keep us in mind.

I drove mine for a few months without the steering damper.  The only reason I replaced it is that I found a new one for 25.00 and said what the heck.  It takes some of the sharp bangs out on the bad roads out here in the boonies.  If the extra feedback bothers you it may be worthwhile, but it isn't a biggie one way or the other.  Your modified suspension may be quite different.

Anyone likes Graeme's original wheels, I know where they are.  ^-^

I'm with you there.

Aaron

.

Keep it coming Graeme, it's nice to see you get all the bugs worked out first before I go ahead and copy exactly what you've done!!! :D
                             brian.

and that is exactly what this is about, of course; to spread and share info.  So feel free to take anything that is of use and ask any questions; I will be happy to answer what I can.
Graeme

OK, I'm in the Christmas spirit....! Want Graeme & all to re-engineer! HEHEH! Have some pics of my new suspension and 'say what'.... Power Steering with coilovers, extended rack, larger brakes, etc... OHHH my GOD....!
I don't know how to post pics here... I'm not sure if I'm hitting a BLANK or what???
tell me and I'll share!....HOHOHO! O0
Sandy

hey Sandy
look under "additional options" just below the text window and it will let you attach files; max of 2.
Look forward to it!!

Ok, finally found "Additional Options" after searching this entire site. Surprisingly, it is placed with the "Reply" area, not like other sites! Anyway, here are some pics!

and more...

finally....

Thanks! Sandy
that is interesting; you have a lot of travel on the shock which is going to give you more creature comfort of course, but it looks REALLY close for clearance between the spring and the upper control arm; is that just me?  Another pic of that maybe?  And what is happening/what does it look like INSIDE the wheel well at the top shock mount?  I am trying to picture what is up there and how javascript:replaceText(' :o', document.postmodify.message);
Shockedit all fits........???
inner tie rod on the rack; is that a stock item; an 88 maybe?  I have no idea; of course you are using some other type of rack.
ARe those fiero front hubs machined down?  Would be interesting to see the 'plate' (aluminum caliper mounting plate) from a side view.......
what calipers are you using?
The lower arms LOOK stock but they must be extended.....right?  Did you get that done or buy them from somewhere?
all these QUESTions..... lol   ???
thanks!
g

Grame, to answer some of your questions....
The shock really does not have all that much travel. Actually the pics without it are just below ride height. When all is back together, I have around 1.5" to 2" from the top of the tire(255/45/17) to the upper rail. The shocks are gas, and with no weight, extend themselves, and that created an 'enlarged' travel!They really compress quite a bit with weight on them!The front  hubs are Fiero with, I believe, pontiac 6000 dual rotors(drilled)and calipers . The rear also has 6000 hubs, calipers and dual rotors,although I had to change them for STE rears(single rotor) to accomodate an E-brake. This was a CK3 design, and unfortunately, thay did not share info to much before they went under. Mt wheel studs are longer to bolt down my new wheels! The power rack is out of a 87-89 Dakota with 2" (Held) extensions screwed into a 'cutdown' Fiero outer ball! Lock to lock is 3 turns. Yes, my upper A arm has lots of clearance, so much so that I investigated installing some new 'Shockwave' airbags instead of the shock/spring. but $2000 was a bit too pricey! Here are some pics of the aluminum caliper brackets that I knew you would be asking about....
Sandy

Oh, the frt rotors are 10 1/4".here's an inside shot of the right side.
Sandy

thx!
did you say something about 12" rotors or a brake upgrade or is that my chronic hallucinatory state carrying on as usual......
???
did you investigate the Zettner rear?
it is (I think) pretty simple to do if you already have a setup (unlike me... :-\ )

Graeme, refer to the previous reply....
they are 10 1/4 rotors... close to the labaron upgrade...
Sandy

BRRR! Ok, well I'm quite sure you're not in the garage today... tooo frigging COLD(-29C)! I guess my 1st statement led you to believe I was upgrading my brakes, my bad! The brakes(10 1/4) are what CK3 supplied me ...(I have a complete new spare set of rotors & calipers as I had to change out my rears to conform to inspection standard! They stop the car well enough, but not as well as some 4 piston variety! As far as the engine, it's a rebuilt SBC 350, mildly tuned, bit of a cam, although I did not want a car like this coughing and sputtering at the lights! Hey, it's fast enough, & I really don't care to win races!
Sandy

when the radio went off this AM they announced -30 and -46 with wind chill!! yuch.
So...........
what is that on the FRANKENstein scale for our .... ::) warmer..  (jealousy) friends south of the border?  (divide by 32 and add 9......no.  add 32 and divide......no...... subtract 5, divide by.......no
OK, get the calculator.
-22F without wind chill and -50.8F WITH wind chill.  Isn't -50 where the eyeballs are supposed to freeze? 
 ???
no licking flag poles today, folks!!

well, the control arms are NOT ready yet but there is still other stuff to do.  Between the cold and my gimpy back I haven't been able to get that much done recently so I am going to blame it on the control arms!  LOL. ::)
Part of getting ready for the new front control arms is a few measurements and calcs;
I am using new coil overs and springs that have VERY limited travel so I have to make sure that my shock/spring settings are at EXACTly the right length for ride height.  I want to have 1/3 of the travel for extension (bounce or jounce, whichever you prefer) and 2/3 for compression.  The total shock travel is only 2.5", so setting proper ride height is fairly critical; I need to have the suspension exactly 'so' when the shock is at that height; or in other words, the mounting brackets need to be attached to permit that extension. 
It being a gas shock, it will extend by itself, and at any rate, it will move, so I made up a 'jig' using a turnbuckle that I can set at the proper shock length for normal ride  height and connect my front wheel ass'y to determine where best to attach the shock mounting tabs.  Handy.  See first pic.  The shock is shown at full extension; the turnbuckle has to be adjusted yet, but it will work fine.
Weighed the wheel ass'y; or what I have of it LESS the absent control arms.........
(pic 2)
91lbs!!!  amazing how it adds up!  I threw in the ball joints and my loaded caliper etc etc for good measure.  From what I know of the control arms I am allowing 18 lbs for the pair, each side.  at a 50/50 split that is 9 lbs shared by the 'wheel' end.  Total weight carried by the wheel.  That brings my total 'wheel' weight (unsprung weight) to 100 lbs per front corner.
Now assuming a car weight of 2850 lbs and a 55/45 weight distribution rear/front; I should have a 1568/1283# distribution.  That means my front corner weight is .5 x 1283# or 641 lbs each corner.  Subtract the 100 lbs for the wheel and that means the spring must push up with a force of 541 lbs  Since my spring rate is 400 lb/inches I need to compress it by 541/400 or about 1.35" to maintain neutral height.  That of course is the beauty of the coil overs; you just 'crank' the spring to where you want. NOTE that this just supports the weight of the car.....   as it turns out, I will need another .833" of compression to get the spring loading I need for proper extension of the shock to get my 1/3 and 2/3 split.
more to follow; but darn, wish I had those control arms; then I could really get inspired!!

A bit more; I was told by Axle Automotive that my new custom CV joints - (since LAST yr.... :-[ ) are a slide on fit onto the Lumina Z34 axles.
So......
gotta try them.  A quick zip with the cut off wheel and the old CV joint is off and yup!  The new one popped on so nicely that I couldn't stop the little O ring from snapping shut!  GREAT.  I cut one of the inner boots on this axle but planned on replacing it anyway.  IT is quite stiff and 'plasitcky' so it has to go.
The new CV joints are a fiero sized inner and an S10 sized outer piece to accept the larger S10 rear wheel bearing spline, just to match the rest of what I am doing.
This is the new one on its test fit.  The longer Z34 axles look like they are going to be a 'lucky' perfect fit on the wider body of the kit car so that is hopefully going to be a nice bonus!!!

in other news, I stripped my steering rack; started out using a wire wheel but went to a chemical stripper that was GREAT!!!  And then about 15 min with a lite wire brush and it is pretty clean.  I will polish it up and put a clear coat on it; it had primer over paint over primer but that furniture stripper just went right thru it in front of your eyes.
Speaking of which.........EYE protection.  If it eats thru that, I didn't want a 'closeup' of what else it would do.
Also cut down my inner tie rods by approx 1/2 to 5/8" and they are perfect now for my wider front; removed the steering dampener and the rack is ready to finish up.
a little bit at a time I guess.  Will have a pic later but didn't really get one of the yuchy paint that was plastered all over it for a before pic.

How did you determine that an additional 0.833" was what you needed?  Is it as simple as 1/3 the length of the shock piston, or...  ???

aha!
Don's sharp eye has caught me trying to slip one by right away.  :-[   you're right; the number DID seem like a lot to me but I was on the run so didn't have the moment to check it.   :D
On the basis that the shock assy has essentially NO load on it when it is initially assembled, (about right) the car's static weight loading will compress the spring  down by 1.35" from its fully extended length.  However, I want it to be at 0.825" from its full extension.  At that setting, the control arms should be horizontal.   (Or equal angles from the horizontal, to be more precise).  That is my goal.   So this is where I have to mount the shock mounting tabs on the lower control arm (top ones are already fixed).
So the amount of additional spring loading that I have to crank in will be 1.35-.825 = 0.525" of additional spring loading.  Not the .825 that I mentioned earlier.  You're more than just a pretty face, aren't you?  ;)
A couple of points:
this will be finally adjusted on the car anyway.......the coil overs lend themselves to this tuning very well of course;
the 400 lb/in springs are a starting point only for now till I see how things work;
the above is going to be subject to the fact that the spring/shock is NOT vertical; it is at an angle and thus it will need more loading as only the vertical component of the spring load is the 'useful' part here.......
The final shock/spring mounting point on the control arms - ie, will they be exactly 1/2 way along the bottom?; 55% to the outside end?; 48%? etc etc will also affect the way they will work as the mechanical advantage (disadvantage?) or if you prefer, similar triangles comes in to play for the loading on them.
But again, coil overs are great for tuning in this situation!.

And I eliminated a LOT of steel from the stocksetup.  I wish I had some stock arms to weigh; the huge stock springs, the bigger stock shocks, the enormous spring perch on the lower control arm; all that is gone!  Granted my brake assy and probably wheel/tire combo is bigger and maybe heavier but I am guessing I am not a lot worse off than the stock setup.

well; an update; not a lot has happened the last couple of wks; Christmas and hurting my back and cold weather have conspired against me a bit there.  At least that is my excuse.   ::)
I haven't been doing NOTHing, but mostly 'paper' and computer-related research; necessary stuff but not physical progress.....
I have been doing a lot of research re: electrical aspects of my swap; it is the REAL test for me; the ;mech part isn't that much of a challenge in my books.  And a major source of elect info; www.dohcfiero, has disappeared from the internet without a trace!?!?!

I have also been doing a bit of planning and thinking about the engine/trans pkg I have; I may get a spare 284 trans just to take apart to see what is inside and try to find another trans that MIGHT share some parts.......???  we'll see.  That is work that I will do when the car is out of my garage and down at the welding shop.

I am a bit disappointed with the welding shop not having my longer front control arms finished for TEST fitting after making a number of promises about working on them.  And not doing that, altho there has been a bit of progress there.  But I can't really blame them too much; I DO have other stuff to do and so they are not a show-stopper.  But it is fun to get new things at Christmas!! :D
So in the next couple of days while it isn't too cold I will be working at the front end to get as ready as I can be for when the control arms ARE done; hopefully a wk or two.
So I hope to get some real constructive work done and will put it up here asap. 
So in the meantime, a Happy New Year to everyone and I hope this is the year that the 308 rolls again!!! 

well as I said the lack of control arms is not holding me up really........
so
today was a nice mild day; I put the heater and radio on and out I went.  Goal for the day is to get the LEFT front ready for the new control arms when they arrive.
The right front is already done........ as far as I can anyway.......have to wait till the control arms arrive to final fitting of the shock assy.

first pic: the LF spring perch (upper of course)....this has got to go to make room for the new coil over.
Second pic: the GARYmachine.

A good hour or two later and it is going to be ready.  This is just sort of slow dirty work; I actually HATE grinding........ :P

So finally I get the area ready as I can for final fitting once the new control arms arrive........ I can't really do any more till I get them as the shock/spring mounting is pretty critical and is entirely dependent on the control arm.

So the first pic is the upper spring perch modified (as in deleted) and carved up to allow for a new mount for the coilover .......

And the upper bracket has to be cut into as well; note that the L and the R are different if for any reason you ever have to get ONE......... check them out.

did a bit more; started looking at the electrical as it IS a major hangup with this particular swap......... so I finally see that there are TWO 'thru the firewall' connectors to the ECM....... hmmmm nobody mentioned this before....
ONE goes right PAST the ECM and up toward the front of the car.  Guages?  Fans?  Switches?  back to the battery? etc etc etc?  I dunno.  But I guess I better find out.

First pic is the from the passenger door; shows the drivers side (rt) thru-the-wall connector and the left side (passenger) seems to go right up toward the front of the car.  Have to trace that out.

Also removed the master cylinder to prepare for installing the new GM truck M/C that has a bigger volume to handle the bigger calipers that I am putting on.  All that has to be swapped is the reservoir; the m/c body is identical; interesting eh?

I will be replacing all the brake lines too.  They are hanging loose and should be pretty easy to do.

Using vertical components isn’t going to work in this case.  You must use moments about your rotational point and solve for the resultant at the spring member (calculating angles accurately).

Use your spring pre-compression as your adjustment after the fact and just set up your ride height where you want it in theory.  However if you have an accurate loading weight then you should be able to accurately calculate the pre-compression thought your moment/resultant calculation, but you will definitely have to adjust it once it is all set up anyway (because it’s too hard to know what the vehicles suspended mass will be).

You don’t want your spring and damper necessarily vertical you want them in line with the direction of their compressional movement.

I’m sure you already know all of this but it was hard to tell what method you were using from reading your post.


Aaron

.

well all the arithmetic so far is quite general because I dont' know my car's weight with the fiberglass kit body; I am guessing it may be heavier; but I might save a bit of weight with my mods.  Then again the 3.4 is going to be a bit heavier than the stock 2.8.  Then again I may forgo the front spare tire and will do a front mount battery. 
And more importantly, I won't know the FINAL angle the shocks (and thus springs) will be at until I actually get the control arms and figure out the shock's bottom mounting points.  And the springs I 'happen to have' ....  are perhaps too high rated ... but maybe not......  I guessed at a spring rate just to get SOME kind of spring for starters.  So by no means is ANY of this final......

So again, it will depend on exactly WHERE the lower shock mount goes on the lower control arm and thus the angle and my ratio of wheel travel to shock travel.

So the numbers are a starting point only and meant to raise some of the issues that have to be considered.

My camera has crapped out on me again; I have a whole bunch of pix that I was going to download showing the final version (whew!) of the rear suspension but ... maybe tomorrow.

Oh yeah, had to watch the hockey today...... ;D
supposed to be a high of zero on monday so if things are not too busy I will do a bit more....  Still lots to do.
 :o

You have all the control right now.  If you think the spring rate is going to be too heavy (I don’t think so) you can just move the mounting point in a bit.  If you think it’s going to be too light you can move the mounting point out a little.

Aaron

.

Loots of talk about suspension here.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048235.html

Aaron

.

well OK, obviously I am not getting something.  Would you please tell me (without knowing the car's weight, and thus corner weight), how much compression I will get with a 1G bump force?
And I will do all my layout from that.

thanks!!
this will speed me up.
Graeme

Can’t answer that without knowing your damper rate and Δt?

Where are you getting the bump force from?  Suspension loads (the important ones) are dynamic not static.  But your instantaneous spring load will be your moments plus 1000, at the point of loading (if you wanted a static load, however dynamic loads will have a Δt).  All you need for the spring pre-compression is a very general number since it’s adjustable.

Guess at the spring pre-compression then figure out your geometry giving you a closer spring load number.  Then make your adjustment to the spring pre-compression (changing geometry) then re-calculate the spring load with the new geometry.  Repeat this until the number stops changing by more than 5%.  But the geomatry should be set up so that the sping pre-compression doesn't change the geometry.


Aaron

.

since the front control arms are STILL a work in progress evidently, (no calls from the welder yet) I figured I would show what has happened with the REAR.
The right rear corner was my guinea pig.  The goal was to get rid of the McPherson strut suspension.  There is a lot of .....background stuff here; this is my surrogate "FULL" kit car......probably as close as I will get to one, anyway....so that is sort of where the chop/cut/hack 'need' comes from...... ::)
So the first shot is across the back of the car, LOOKING at the right rear corner from the engine compartment (now empty of course..)

You will see a light-coloured square at the top; that is my new upper shock mount already welded in place.  There is of course a matching bracket that bolts to THIS and then the shock bolts to the bracket.

Next pic is from the right OUTside of the same corner; looking INTO the wheel well.  You will see the familiar cradle at the bottom (no Ctl arm in place) and then above it the modified middle frame member.  There are two pockets in the new frame piece; each to accommodate the new upper control arms mounting bracket.

Now some of the 'stuff'.
Pontiac 6000 uprights; I got this idea from BubbaJoe a ways back.  The white one is ready to go and the rusty one has had the machine work done but still needs a shave. These are prepped to accept an S10 FRONT wheel bearing from a 4x4 version.  The 3 bolt holes had to be 'stretched' a bit and the big centre hole needed a bit of work to take the bearing properly.  Requires 2 differnt length bolts (qty 3) to fasten the 2 parts together.
Pic 2 shows the 2 parts bolted together.  Note that this is an old S10 bearing but the new ones will have the studs replaced by slightly longer and fatter Moroso 1/2" x 3" HD racing duty wheel studs to match the (now-modified) front of course.

Bolt pattern is common chev 5 on 4 3/4" centres.

here you'll get the idea of how all this mess will go together.
Back to the frame; the 'pockets' will hold brackets which in turn will mount the new control arm.  The first pic gives you an idea of how it goes together.

2nd pic is the assy on the floor since I am too lazy to bolt it all to the car again.   :D

This is the bracket I made up to bolt to the upright and to the two heim joints you saw previously.  I reused the existing big bolts that hold the strut to the upright.
It will also bolt up to the shock at the top.  Oh yeah; the TOP is the bottom left in the pic.  :o
Now (2nd pic) you start to see how this will go together; the S10 bearing is in place in the upright; the new bracket is bolted to the upright; the shock bolts to the top.  Not shown: the final top shock mounting bracket. 

I have made this setup with 1.5 inch built in drop if I want it so that I can lower the car by 1.5" for the track and then raise it the same for street and a bit more clearance.  I walked it thru my mock up and I think it is going to work quite well.  I was concerned about the short control arm length for quite a bit but after looking at a LOTLOTLOT of suspension pix and going thru 3 different 'mockup' versions (in steel  :P ) I am satisfied that I have a workable solution.

Again as with the front I am going to have to experiment with spring rates a bit and find what is best.  The springs I have are HEAVY - 650 #/"!! (they were actually for a very DIFFERENT experiment LOL) but I am figuring they might not be THAT far off the mark!

So that is where the rear is at the moment.  The drivers side has had almost nothing done so getting rid of all that extraneous metal is the next job.   :(
The critical thing here is getting that 'custom' frame piece put in place to exactly MIRROR image that frame piece on the drivers side.  For that it will go into a shop so that it is EXACT.

Well, looks quite 'robust'! BTW... I have 500 lbs springs in my rear, coilovers are (more)angled differently to accept 4" per side xtra width and is stiff using a SBC V8. I think with 650 pounders you might as well run a steel bar instead of struts! heheh! Graeme, if your using 12' springs, I have 2 spare 500 lbs(Chrome) that are available.
Sandy
Ignore the rubber in the 2nd pic, was used for trial fit.

hi Sandy
thanks;
you might like my frame mod; it will free up a LOT of space in the engine compartment.  NOTE: there is no offer either express or implied in the previous statement LOL  :D :o :P
It will be interesting to see how it works out.
I think it will be pretty robust; I don't want to be thinking about that stuff when I am cranking it around corners LOL.
I have replaced my strut of course with this new upper control arm setup, but I wondered (and I know that "Blutes" will be interested in seeing what you are doing at the rear. You have an extra 4" per side?  Now what is happening with your rear struts; do they simply 'angle them' farther out -(as in keep the upper mount stock?  I have to think that SOME sort of compensation would have to be made for the increased angle induced at the upright when you put that extra 'lean' on the strut????

Can you take that wheel/tire off and get a pick?  This would be for others; not me, but it is something I would be interested in anyway.

My springs are only 9" free length.  I COULD use your 500's but would have to cut them down and reheat one end to get a 'flat coil' again.  Not sure that would look so good but will keep that in mind. 

It is true that it will ride VERY hard but I assume you have a longer shock stroke (you do with your strut) so you can have a softer spring........  I have about 1 1/2" of compression on the shock available to me so I will have to have a pretty hard spring; on the other hand, the roughly 1:2 shock:wheel travel ratio will compensate a bit but still it ain't gonna be no cadillac......... ::)

WORK UPDATE:
went out last nite (pressed for time - school and kids activities are back in FULL swing!! :( ) and managed to cut out the LR strut tower and a bit of adjacent stuff.
I will be cutting pretty much everything off the firewall too; brackets of ALL kinds that won't be used anymore or else I will tack on new ones.  I removed the cute little fan and 'ducting' for the coil awhile back; boy is that ever a borderline effort on Pontiac's part!!
I will be replacing all the brake lines and I see the Ebrake cable was securely fastened with good ole nylon zip ties so it will all be redone too.....
very indicative of the quality of work this thing had...... wait'll I show you the "tail lites" that someone cobbled together!  You'll laugh your ........ well.... something valuable off!!!!
(coming in a future episode  :D )

Yes Graeme, the rear end is 2" short of 8 feet! Engine bay space?? I have lots..HEHEH! I'm running a LONG waterpump on my SBC! Seriously, you are right about the struts.... The Fiero upper mounts were cut out and replaced with a wider upper mount! I found some older pics that will explain it better.
Sandy
Note: the POS switch in the 1st pic is no longer there! heheh!

The engine/ecm harness is self evident...  I hope.  ;)

The one which goes "past" the ECM along the center tunnel is the main wiring harness.  It covers all interior functions, instrument panel feeds, exterior lighting, and so on.  There's a pass-through connector at the front bulkhead for the front lighting & HVAC.  At C500 it splits to one half for the rear lighting, and the other for non-engine management drivetrain electronics such as the VSS feed, charging system, starter solenoid, sending units for the gauges, etc.

thanks, Don
as you can see I haven't dug into this part at ALL.......yet.  So in your note above, when you say the 'other half' (of the C500) you mean literally the 'second block' that splits away at the C500 so that ONE 'block' is for ie lighting etc ONLY (note: I am assuming EVERYthing here, not making statements...) and the OTHER 'block' of the C500 is for 'non-engine management etc'.......

is that right?
if so, then where do the ECM 'controls' come in?  I expect it must be in there somewhere...  for oil pressure/fuel pump linking; ignition control; injector control etc etc..... is that sort of stuff all run thru ONE block (only) of the C500 or is that stuff separate wiring altogether?  I have some VERY good wiring diags of the fiero circuitry BUT it doesn't show where the wiring goes thru connectors....  :(

Bottom line: I can literally leave 1/2 of the C500 alone; a whole 'block' of it (lighting etc) and only have to use the wiring for the other 'block' or 1/2 of the C500?  Seems almost too convenient.... :o  which is why I am asking.

I WILL have a lot of wiring to do; there are as you no doubt know, a LOT of differences from 85 to the 92 ECM I am putting in; it has 4 plugs; each of which is almost as big as the 'single' fiero plug....  but that is ok

WORK: I contacted the welding shop yesterday and he said he hoped to have something for me maybe late today.  I am getting busy at (real $) work again and so I hope to make some real strides in the VERY near future before my little window of opportunity closes till about March...... :-[ 

This Sat is supposed to be +3!!!!!  Here's hoping!!

Graeme, forgot to mention... in the above pics you'll notice that there are aluminum spacer plates between the strut & spindle. This allows for an even 'wider' track without major framing changes.
Sandy

If you have a chance, Sandy; could you post a pic or two of the upper and (more importantly) lower strut connections/adapters you have?

I am simply curious but blutes is prob very interested; he has a 355......

Graeme, not sure when I will get some new pics. The car is in storage (another garage) and I'm not sure when I'll get over there. Those others were old (3-4 yrs ago) pics. I will post when new pics taken... well, maybe this W/E, but no promises!
Sandy

Correct.

Identifying which is which is simple--of the two male connectors at C500, one will have a bundle which snakes over to the engine.  The other loom normally loops up and over the upper RH frame rail, between the outside of the frame rail & the rear clip.  Hopefully whomever originally installed your body kit followed similar routing.



Yup, it's in there somewhere.  ;)

The ECM has a direct connection to the injectors, ignition module, MAT & CTS sensors, fuel pump relay, and a few other things I'm probably forgetting.

The main harness carries the signal from the VSS, connects to the fuel pump, oil pressure sending unit, idiot lights, etc.

Yet the ECM needs the VSS signal for some of its work, not to forget ultimately having control over whether or not the fuel pump is running, and directly drives two of the idiot lights.

Under the center console, just below the ECM, there are a couple of flat connectors which link some of the circuits in the main harness with those of the ECM.  Power to/from the fuel pump relay's contact goes through there, as do the signals which operat the "shift" and "check wallet" idiot lights, and more that I can't think of at the moment.


With respect to installing your engine, yes.

With respect to your alluding earlier to having some work to do with your rear lighting, possibly no.  :)

 O0
thank you sir.
I think I have the gist of it for now.
More questions to come, no doubt. Don't you just love these smilies?  They say EXACTly what I want to get across!!!

 :o

Other than a new engine harness, the only connections I had to worry bout went through C500 and C203 (the one under the center console).

Aaron

.

wooo hoooo
got my first set of new control arms; tacked together to try out today.....they look GOOD; gotta get some pix as soon as I load the software for the new digi camera; finally gave up on my old one; too many probs and no flash anyway.

So with luck, I will do my test fit this wknd and assuming no probs have the OTHER set as well by next wknd!!  That means the front end is about 90%!!

will get some pix up asap.

Ok, spent the day fighting with building a custom power steering pump mount! But I did take some pics for you Graeme.... hope it's what you want...
Sandy

and 2 more pics..

thnks Sandy
hoped to get some test fitting done this wknd but got into kitchen painting.  I can't explain the attraction........ :-\

THIS is the part I am interested in; where did it come from; what is it (guessing alum) and what can you tell me about it;
I suppose it is just 'spacers' on the inside where the strut USED to be.......

fiero308 if I'm not mistaken Held Motorsports are the people that sell this item, just before Christmas, I installed a 3800 Supercharged on a fiero chassis that is going to be a Lambo Diabelo. The owner bought all suspension components from Held. He bought the wide track kit, alsong with the rear kit came these two big bulky spacers for the rear struts. I have no clue what thier worth?

Joe

The aluminum brackets are from CK3 (now defunct). I would think that Joe is correct (being Helds) as CK3 usually copied everyone else! Give 'Lee' a call if you're interested.... I would not think that they would be hard to duplicate.
Sandy

aluminum, eh?  It looked like that; that is why i asked.
hmmmm
boy, I would want to know that they are carefully made from the best grade; putting those corners/bends in them and then squeezing them like that with those big bolts.  Sorry, Sandy; not trying to give you ulcers or anything; I am just thinking about the stresses on the part and I am NOT sure how it was made; specifically how it was bent (radius of bend etc).

On the plus side, the piece/assy shouldn't have too much lateral stress on it as the top of the strut would allow some movement in that instance.  And being very short is going to help a lot as long as the corners are radiussed properly.  And you have been running on them for a long time so that is the proof of the pudding.

I think Brian will be interested in those for his 355.  He has to widen the rear a lot.

anyway; it was nice and 'not too cold' in the garage today; did a test fitting of the new right front control arms and they will need a bit of a tune up.  But I also found a few interesting things;
(first pic)
the new tacked together control arms; they are heavy duty SOB's; evidently the shop doesn't want me coming back about them for the next 40 years...... but they will need to go on a diet ..... too heavy for my liking right now.

I bought a 'scrap' white box ball joint for the LCA so that repeated in/outs wouldn't screw up the splines on the expensive MOOG one.......  turns out the cheapo was about 3-4 thou BIGGER than the MOOG; which is the one the LCA is sized for.......so a bit of grinding was needed to put the cheap one in place for test fitting.  Oh well.

The poly bushings go in a LOT easier when you take out the inner steel sleeve and drive in the bushing ONLY; then tap in the sleeve after (everything is greased at this point of the game)

What I found:
The POLY bushings have a 'fat end' and a skinny end.  I first installed the bushings (the easy way!) from the outsides-inwards...... but then the LCA simply wouldnt fit!  I was ready to take it back when I noticed the difference in the end lengths of the bushings.... so I turned one around and it was perfect!  (2nd pic)

The LCA 'rear' member sticks out too far; when the wheel is turned hard right it acts as a 'stop' and that is no good.  So that has to be fixed.  The UCA ball joint mounting plate is actually TOO heavy in my opinion, it doesn't have THAT much stress on it and is NOT subject to any bending moment unless the balljoint seizes solid I suppose....

And the plate is at too much of an angle toward the inside of the car; I THINK the balljoint was binding when I took the wheel to the upper limit of travel; we are going to look into that.

Otherwise things look good!  I am hoping to get things back BY thursday (+7 degrees!!) and that I can work out there again.  Oh yeah.......there is still lots to do...
but that is OK; at least I am getting a bit done..

here's the difference between the stock (on top) and the new LCA's.  Notice how the rear member of the new one sticks out more and this is acting as a wheel stop.

the 2nd pic is the wheel assy at the top of travel; max bump compresson.
The wheel WILL turn except for what I said above re: the LCA.  But we will fix that.

slowly but Shirley.....

 :D

Wednesday update: well the shop modified the LCA and it looks "pretty" good; they lightened it so that it is only 1/2 lb more than stock and it IS a bit longer..... I will consider drilling it and lightening it a bit more, too.  It still sticks out a bit and may act as a wheel stop; will find out I guess when i do a mockup.
 
The upper: they weren't sure what I would be happy with so had to talk to me on that.  With luck they will finish that too, and I can get them back for a FINAL test fit Thurs; it will be +10C!!!!  hope so!!
but there is still lots of other work to do so I will be out there grinding away in the engine bay area with the "Gary machine"... ;)

Fri AM update: got the modified test control arms (for lack of a better word) back from the shop thurs PM;
test fitted them last nite and I think there is still a bit of tuning up to do but it is getting so close I am almost ready to take them (patience, grasshopper!).  They are definitely so close that the shop can mock up most of the LEFT side now and just wait for my bit of input.
I am taking the right front set back in this AM to check one or two things then see how fast they can finish them all up.
Here is the shock lower mount positioning for ride height setting of the control arms and proper shock setpoint.
This is shown on the new 'tacked together' LCA.  It is fine; fits great.  Just the upper that I may adjust the ball joint mounting plate a bit.  More to follow soon, I hope!! Want to work on it this wknd!!

Hi Graeme - Keep it coming, the work you are doing is tremendous and very interesting!! Good pics!! ;D

hi
thanks;
I had to get some work done; sometimes you wonder but this is something i have wanted to do for a long time.  To be really ridiculous, I am hoping to go see V8Archies shop in IL this summer and see his GT40 kit (future considerations).  THAT is my fave car.... and so I am viewing all this as 'practise'.  Interestingly, Darth Fiero's shop is on the way in Indiana so hope to stop in there too.
I hit a "Canada delay" after my last outing (Jan).  It dropped to the -25 range for about a wk-10 days and during that time I got busy at work. Typically this is my busiest time of yr, so  not a surprise. It is now 13 feb - sunday - and i have been workworking all day. Oh well. I can see that maybe in about a wk I will be caught up and able to get out there again.
In the meantime,
I bought another parts car; a 92 Lumina Z34 with 5 spd, complete.  It actually sounds pretty good but I will have to get it here. 
I have hit a possible snag with the new upper arm.  It may be too far 'back' where the upper balljoint installs and we are checking that.  As in, the welding shop is thinking about it.... to be realistic.  But it will get resolved soon.
I am hoping to get a pic from someone of the STOCK setup, taken from 'dead-on' the stub axle end to show the alignment of the arms etc etc.
I am starting to think about maybemaybe getting my car on the road for this summer; my plans so far is simply to get it RUNNING.......so that is ambitious but who knows?
So my next progress should hopefully start up again in about a wk.  I am going to push this as much as possible.  But not tomorrow.  That is the 14th Feb and I am told that is something special.... ::)

Welllllllllllllll  it has been a while. Things like keeping body and soul together, for myself and various hangers-on around here. Then a principle client broke his leg and was (still is...) laid up for the past 5 wks so I ended up being his 'gopher'..... to meetings and jobsites and so on - on top of doing other ......umm - work.

But finally got back at it last nite. I have been plaguing the welder to come to have a look at his handiwork - specifically the upper control arms (front) he made. I mocked it up and it 'LOOKED" (unscientific, huh?) like it wasn't right. And so I put the stock arms back on and found a reference point ( a bit difficult since the new arms are almost 2" longer) to try to compare. And it 'seemed' like the new uppers were not right. But weeks and weeks went by and he couldn't manage to get here to have a look; so friday I phoned and said why don't I go ahead and make any changes and he said 'sure!"........ so I did.
Sat nite spent about 2 solid hours doing end of winter cleanup;
THEN got at the uppers.
This is what I found:
First is a pic of the roughed together upper arm in my jig (the jig is what takes the time...)
You can sort of see the tape measure with the 10" mark showing in the opening. You can sort of see that it is not centred......... so I was right. In fact it was off by just about 1/4" exactly. 2nd pic is a bit clearer. I took the pix without the flash but believe me, I had lots of light for this stuff.

2 pix per posting..........
so I cut out the plate, nicked the tack welds and bent the arm so that the plate would mount in the right place. In this pic it shows the 'adjusted' lower arms (in the jig) with the other side control arm (not yet adjusted) on top of it; to show how much I had to move it.
Then I have to grind out some material and tack it together. Again it looks dark but that is in fact because of the spot light fooling the cameras light meter. You can see how much I have to get rid of but that is OK.
Today I'll do that to both uppers and work on getting the proper shock mounts attached to the lower arms; then monday I can take them in to be all solidly welded up.  While they are doing that, we'll go sun ourselves somewhere warmer!!! O0

well I'm not a happy camper. The whole point of getting the welding shop to make up the new (longer) front upper control arms (yes, the bottoms too) was to SAVE time.
I have ended up taking apart the upper arms completely; they weren't made accurately; and, as a further concern, the heavy steel 'sleeves' that the red poly bushings fit into seem to be some bizarre alloy that doesn't like mild steel.  Repeated efforts to tack the new arms to these sleeves are ending in the arms simply snapping off. There is NO penetration or 'stick' to the sleeve material; I don't know what it is but it isn't stainless. So that is a concern and at this point in time a P.O.
They used the same stuff for the lower arms so that might turn into an issue too.

So I happened to have some high quality seamless tubing that is just about right for the small upper poly bushings; so I have made up new sleeves and remade the left front upper control arm and have got the right front ready to go. That being said I am NOT happy with how they look and I am going to pursue getting some other good tubing I have bent and remake the arms too.
Right now everything looks sloppy and I am not happy with that.
So today has been an exercise in frustration and a lost day pretty much.

Maybe to reclaim a bit of progress I'll try to get that upper shock mount made up. That at least I can do, then mirror it for the far side.

darn and more...... >:(  :(

May 8th. Hmmmm
Oh yeah! Happy Mothers Day!!
I spend a fair bit of it in the garage........ THAT should make her happy!  O0
Had a week away and workwork when I got back but finally got to spend some time on the front end again.
I wasn't happy with the way the welding shop did the front upper control arms so decided to redo them.
Step one: need a bender......
mickey-moused one out of 3 pipe dies and a metal bender I had...... that took a bit of time.  Works OK.  O0  No flat spots on the tubing after bending it, providing I am careful. I am using a die for the 'stopper' or keeper (whatever you want to call it) that is sometimes just a flat piece of metal. This helps maintain the round section.
Hard to tell, probably; the 'most reddish' one at the back is the 'stopper' - the other two do the bending and form the radius.
Test piece looks OK; learned a bit from it.

(2 pix per........)

Bent up my new arms. Turned out OK.  1" DOM tubing with .100 wall. Bought a bit of this stuff way back.  A bit rusty..... ::)

Next, I realized that the ball joint mounting plates they used didn't provide enough area at the edges to allow for a decent weld. So......... make up new ones. 1/4" plate.  Oh well.  Also my belt sander is on its last legs.  (Excuse coming up)......

So a new sander was required.  Seems logical, right?

And finally; as far as I got today; new arms made up, new ball joint mounting plates made up, one arm finished/sized - ready to be tacked in place.  You can see the bushings in the jig and the 12mm threaded rod I am using to hold things in place.

I am hoping to have both arms finished tomorrow. The bottom front control arms are good; so this gets me almost done with the front suspension (fabrication-wise).

I am making the upper control arms to be interchangeable; my suspension travel is very limited and so the ball joint plate is 'aimed' at the axis of rotation (the long bolt that goes thru the upper control arm bushings) ...... vs the slight angle that is on the stock setup.  I don't foresee any problem with doing this.

more to come soon I hope  :P
gp

update:
monday may 9th; I got the upper control arms all tacked together and got the lower shock mounts attached to the lower control arms and took them into the welding shop to 'get glued' together (high amperage welder)

I could do it but I feel a bit more comfortable having them do this particular bit.

Hope to have them back in a day or two, then sandblast and paint! Then I have to get the upper shock mounts done and my front end will roll!!  Won't stop, but it will roll.
Brake caliper mounting brackets are on the soon-to-do list.........

But it is progress and that is good.

gp

little update:
the control arms are DONE......
welded solid and test fitted on the jig to be sure they didn't move during welding; I have drilled and tapped them for grease fittings and have to sandblast and paint them now.
With a little luck I will get my other donor car tomorrow - Sat; and get it back here in my driveway which should please all the neighbours immersurably...... ::)
I have cleaned and primed the steering rack so it is ready for painting when it gets WARM enough again arrrrgggghhhhh

So stay tuned...... little things happening
gp

Well the control arms are painted; at least partially - seems pretty bad when you have to wait for WARM WEATHER in MAYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!! arghhh

I also cleaned up the steering rack and had it checked out; it is fine. But as a note, the amount of corrosion where the rubber bushings fit was SCARY!  A LOT of heavy duty corrosion to the point that a measureable amount of aluminum has warn away I would guess.

So it is cleaned, primed and painted. Aluminum, so it looks new, LOL.
My BIG concern now is with holding it firmly in place. Looking at those "U" brackets, they don't look all that strong against lateral forces. In fact, they don't look right at all. So I am thinking about adapting something like a bit of reinforcement to them (they still have to fit the bushings etc) to keep them from 'bending' a bit from side to side.

Does anyone know if you can get poly steering rack bushings?

Hope to get a good day in on the car today! Pix to follow.
gp

got some work done; not as much....... you know..........
but started prepping the new lower control arms; realized that one had been ground down and smoothed and the other NOT (yet) ..... then I looked inside and saw that the seam inside had not been welded so I decided to do that too.

first pic you can see near the back where the seam is.......
that will eventually be gone.......
you can see in the next pic where that unwelded seam is........

Upper control arms are done; tapped and ready for grease fittings; got two coats on top of the primer so that is a start. I am not going for show quality right now; I am too anxious to make it ROLL.........!!!

I put bolts in where the grease nipples will go to keep paint off the threads.
Anyway
long story short; spent pretty much the rest of the day on the lower control arms; drilled and tapped the grease nipple holes; drilled lightening holes and future sway bar holes in the 'web' between the arms; did a LOT of smoothing and finishing; not show quality, no, but it doesn't look too too bad;
primed and painted finally;
got the steering rack just about ready to go back in with the new ends installed; just have to put one boot on. It has 2 fresh coats of aluminum paint.
so a bit of progress.  Amazing how time consuming it is.  ::)

Dude....those look super heavy duty.  I don't think you are going to have any problems with it.

Aaron

.

well problems are NOT something I want so I am going to err on the side of "no problems" as much as possible.   ;)
Believe it or not they are only a shade heavier than the stock units.... and they ARE longer so they should be a bit more I suppose but I will save a fair bit with the reduced suspension components (removed spring, shock, spring perch, etc etc etc)
So I may come in under weight anyway.


Got the steering rack reinstalled today; holding that plastic/rubber protective sleeve out of the way is a trick; if you snake some vice grips up inside then you can pry the sleeve back and work comfortably. Took a pic in case that helps anyone.
(later)

Installing the control arms; front right. It IS a bit of a test fit and it is TIGHT!! but that is ok
just got the ball joint pressed in; the impact gun makes short work of THAT LOL!!!
should have a bit more progress to post shortly.
Day by day bit by bit. I'll beat Gary.......... :D

well got a lot of 'work' done....... but lots more to do of course.
Painted both front wheel wells; couldn't decide between silver and black so went with gray.
Got the steering rack installed; used vice grips as a 3rd hand to make it easier to keep the boot out of the way (1st pic) good hint here for anyone doing 'rack work'.

Got my control arms finished and the bushings installed and the grease nipples; modified those little end caps for the lowers to match/fit my lower control arms; got the right front installed (2nd pic) so I can do my final locating for the upper shock mount.

A good day; cleaned up and got the bench ready for tomorrow; set up a jig for making the upper shock mount both sides and make them. Got some grinding to do on the driver side spring perch area to make it match the right side (where I have spent all my time)

Doesn't look too bad so far. Nice and tight, too; those end caps really make you force the control arms into place!

alright I forgot to add the 2nd pic

Graeme, great work! Just a thought for you..... your lower arm looks very similar to mine and I would like to suggest a mod for it. By the pic above your trailing support arm is welded to the 2" main. Cut that off and weld plates (horizontal) to each with 2 large holes through both. Use 2 grade 8 bolts to attach together. What that will do is allow you to easily adjust caster. Simply loosen the bolts, push/pull the 2" main and tighten back up..... allows easy adjustment! Mine were built by CK3 and are real easy for adjustment. Use 3/16 to 1/4" plate. The only pic I have is from the front, but you can see the bolts at the rear and just surmise 2 horizontal plates, 1 welded to the 2" arm, the other to the trailing arm. again, good work...
Sandy

hey Sandy
thanks for the input; I ......see........ two bolts sticking out the bottom; I presume those are the ones you are talking about; if possible maybe a pic from the back?
The car isn't going anywhere .........today......... or maybe even tomorrow.
If you get a chance would appreciate it.
thx!
gp

well got my jig made up and got ALMOST both upper shock mounts made.
Little difference between this pic and the one at the top of the page; can you see it?
Prizes to the most observant!!!

 :D

OK, took this shot for you Graeme....
Sandy

Fantastic postings, I'm eager to see this first-hand!

thanks, Nick! nice to see that someone is looking at this; I don't think ANYone will copy it and I would advise them to get their HEAD READ first if they wanted to!!  :D
It has been a long haul but I am making progress finally.
Today I take my hubs and wheel ass'y's to the machine shop to get my front caliper bracket made up and will get the rotors drilled and slotted too. When I put the whole thing together the big flat rotors look like those fake pie plate brake covers that you can get at Cdn Tire etc so drilling and/or slotting is almost a MUST!

I hope to finish fitting up the drivers side front corner; shock mount etc etc and get that together too.

Ordered a ball joint and both outer tie rod ends; should be in today.
Will have to get a pair of new 'rear' wheel bearings soon....... THAT will cost a penny or two.

But hoping to get a good wknd of work on them this wknd and that should make a difference!  We'll see how today goes. Nice to make progress after waiting all this time.

Sandy; thx for the 2nd pic; it is the two 'bottom right' bolts that are the adjustment?
I think I can make out slotted holes (on one?) Is that right?
I am thinking about doing this or something; the control arms are a TIGHT FIT!!!! all adjustments are with the upper arm and/or balljoint as per stock.

I might leave it for now; simply (HUGELY) anxious to get it rolling and then be prepared to take apart and paint things over the winter.

Who is CK3; do you have a link etc? Not familiar with them; is that the outfit in Texas?
Thanks for helping!
Graeme

Yes, both holes are slotted, allowing a fair bit of adjustment! CK3 was a company out of Calgary AB with some of the best (arguebly) replicas out there. Unfortunately, the Pres got greedy and was shut down with many lawsuits around the globe!No link, they are out of business. But, the  guys that worked there were very skilled and knew their stuff! Using the slotted adjustment allows very easy caster adjustments without having to 'shim/washer' the upper arm.
Sandy

I spy with my little eye, a steering rack attached to the chassis!

and if you look real close, a coil over shock. Finally  ::)

But a setback today; I went to install the LEFT front lower control arm and somehow it doesn't line up. SO it goes back to the shop tomorrow. I compared it to the stock one and it WAS off (sounds logical, right?  :-\ )  I hope they can fix it there or at least by end of day friday. I am getting really antsy on getting this thing rolling.

NNNNOOOTTTTTT that I am 'stuck' for things to work on ROLLEYESBIGTIME but I was HOPING to finish the front. Anway
this weekend it is on to the drivers side rear corner and the frame mods. I am hoping to have pretty substantial gains by end of monday coming up. Like be "CLOSE" to it rolling on its own......???
we'll see.

well about 2 1/2 hours later; I got the front left corner fixed up; had to grind the upper existing spring tower some to clear the new coil over; did that and it opened up some spaces between the top plate and the 'shroud' around the stock spring (for lack of a better term)
see pic for clarity.

The spaces were too big to just fill in with weld; well.......I guessssss I coulda.....
but it would have been messy. Grapes and gobs all over.

So I trimmed up some 'slivers' of 1/8" flat bar to fit and welded them in. Then I put 'straps' on the sides to help hold the top plate to the stock lower piece (again, the piece that 'wraps' around the stock spring)

so anyway I welded that up; added a heavy; hi strength washer to the rear-most bolt hole for the lower control arm (welded that in place) and then added a gusset to that bracket too. It is a pretty long, flimsy bracket so maybe that will help.  Got all new hi strength bolts and locking nuts and put them in place.

Then REpainted all the stuff I burned up welding  ::).

The only thing to do is a bit of tweaking to the upper control arm so the ball joint sits down flat and that corner is done.

I took in my hub and wheel and brake assy's to the machine shop so they can fab up a connecting bracket between my new calipers and my knuckles. They are also going to slot and Xdrill the rotors. Said it would be a wk to a wk and a half.

So this week I will finish the front left corner and switch to left rear where I have to cut the frame and insert a straight portion with 'pockets' for the new upper control arm (as is already done on the right side).

that's it for today; tomorrow clean up and get back at 'er.
gp

todays update
cleaned up the AWFUL mess that someone left in the garage.........
took most of the day I think.
Also got the outer tie rod ends for the rack;
got a ball joint for the lower of the left front control arm (still have to press it in)
touched up the upper control arm for the LF and installed it;
proof is pic one

So that is all I can do on the front until I get my hubs and wheels and stuff back; prob by end next wk.

next on the list is the left rear......... LOTS to do.
let's see
remove the control arm bolts and bushings......
remove the ball joint for replacement with new.......
nothing to it, right?
Been there, done that. Just not with THIS control arm. So we'll see how it goes.
I am allotting one hour for that job.
more to come.

gonna go out on a limb here and force myself into a situation.
I am hoping/planning to have a 'rollable' chassis by the end of monday (long wknd). I say rollable because I have taken my front wheels and spindle assy's in to the machine shop so they won't be back for about a wk.
but KNOWING it will roll is a biggie.

Have a great wknd, everyone!
gp

Good luck I'm sure the effort will be worth it.

Aaron

.

well it only took about 30 seconds to remove the lower rear control arm, as it turns out.
Method:
take hopeful (of driving the car someday) son and explain/show what has to be done. (Don't make any promises  ;) )
Go away and do other things.  :D
Takes about 30 seconds!!

THEN........ get all waylaid and distracted by miscellaneous issues.
The sandblaster - the starwars casting reject in pic No 2.......... ::) didn't work. Get it working. You'll see my very humourous but working sandblaster; (have a good laugh; everyone else is!!) looking very much like an old dishwasher cabinet, with a 5 gal pressure sandblaster below it (dark blue 'can') and a gray intermediate pail (sand interceptor) and a large shopvac to help clear the air. It works. Only problem is finding valves that will stand up to the abrasive sand!!!!!!!!!
(look at next pic/post

here is the stuff that REALLY slows down a job like this:
Thinking (wrongly) that only opening the little ball valve (on the sandblaster nozzle) partway would reduce the amount of air, sand and thus wear, I had THIS experience. Thinking about it, it makes sense. The air gets 'redirected' within the valve because it has to flow 'around' the angle you create...... so it hits the sides of the (nice, soft brass!) valve on the way. Final: sand : 1, brass, NO SCORE.
man, did it ever blow thru.

and the other time burners; had to go get stuff to make up an extension cord for my welder so it would reach the left rear corner comfortably.  I decided to make it 5m long.

But more time......necessary but .......gone, all the same.

Now to get the bushings out of the control arm. NOT for the weak-of-attention-span types:

Soak bushing in lacquer thinner for about 5 min; then very carefully MOVE THE FLAMMABLE STUFF AWAY!!!!!!!

set up a backstop for the little flaming rocket that will come out (the 'wide' side) of the control arm and then apply torch.  About 1 minute and you have it.

LET COOL before sticking the other side in lacquer thinner to repeat.

and this is how it turns out; nice and clean sleeve; just clean it up with a bit of varsol and then run a wire brush thru it and it is like new.

NOTE: in the previous pic you see the control arm with one bushing off to one side. This time around the bushing didn't go too far.
I HAVE had them take off (like I said) about ........15 feet or maybe more........in a moment of inattention, while I was turning the LCA to apply heat all around. Went into the garage and hit something where it finally stopped.  Remember this is a little ball of flaming, liquidy rubber. Nasty, sticky, messy and oh yeah, BURNing.

So make sure you AIM it at something that doesn't matter and doesn't BURN!!! Otherwise this method is GREAT!!!!

got the LR lower control arm cleaned up and took out the ball joint; it will have to be replaced but i am going to use it for now to get things rolling. The rivets are really IN there....... BFH and a substantial punch (after grinding the heads off) and a bit of persuasion.

Started cutting out the frame and misc metal that is 'in the way' at the LR corner. MAN that stock metal does NOT impress me; it is very thin, it obviously is only spot welded (you can pull apart 'strips' of it at a time) and it BENDS really easily.

So what I am putting in is going to be a lot more substantial.

TECH TIP
safety tip, actually; since i am going to be grinding and welding in the engine bay I heavily wrapped the fuel lines in aluminum foil so that it will repel sparks; at least enough.

I decided it would be smart, since I am trying to 'mirror image' the right side to the left side, to have a good centreline nearby that I could reference.
I found that by fluke a piece of punched angle steel I had just happened to have two holes perfectly aligned with the rear (vertical up) cradle bolts. I am going to assume that those bolts are reasonably symmetrical across a centerline.

That made it easy to find a rear reference; then I just tied a string to the centre hole, verified to each bolt that it WAS in fact the center (it was) and then can use that to measure to the RR and then compare easily to the LR.

I will do the same with the front (horizontal) cradle bolts. That will take a bit more doing.

try aGAIN...... for some reason I can't post anymore to this thread.
Got the frame cut away; a messy job as you have to turn the Garygrinder in all different directions to get at the stuff you want and you end up with sparks in your face 1/2 the time.

But it is ready for the new piece to be fab'd and installed (THAT is the big job here,not the demo)

Very carefully notched and bent the new piece to match the existing section already installed on the passenger side. Shown here drawn in with a short pipe clamp so I can tack weld it at the exact right angle. Finished it up solid and now I can start cutting pieces out and welding pieces in to make the upper control arm 'pockets' (like the other one).

(now we try to 'post' again.......)

HEY
it worked. that was the 4th try; I thought I would have to abandon it - maybe too many pix of something.???

Anyway; for the curious, here is a comparison of the stock and the new 'frame' section.  I keep saying it because it has made quite an impression on me how 'soft' the stock steel is. Get a strip of it about an inch wide and you can bend it in your fingers! Try that with a piece of bar stock!

But I AM up against a material shortage I found out last nite; I need a bit more heavier plate and don't have enough to make the parts I need; I doubt I can get it this wknd ....BUT there is still lots to do!

The bottom pic is the new frame member "BEFORE" pic; it is all sewn up but about to be butchered too.

well Sunday was pretty much a waste; I didn't/don't have the right steel I needed; 3/16" plate; thought I did so........ went to Princess; bought a 6' piece of channel and cut off the parts that I don't need.  Sort of like making a stone sculpture of an elephant.
Get a big chunk of stone and simply chisel away all the parts that don't look like elephant.......

OK, I am in a funny mood; I HATE grinding with a passion and that seems to be all I have been doing for the last 2 days or so.

Anyway
on to the work:
This first pic is the right rear susp setup; this is what i have to mirror image.
 (edit; it is 18 parts to be made up) 18 pieces to be fabricated, cut, ground, finished, 24 holes to be located and drilled, then everything assembled and welded.  That EXCLUDES work on the frame piece; this is just what bolts on.......... :P

And what i have got done so far: rubber (poly, actually) bushings cut to length; main connector made up and 99% finished (that was the biggest single job!) New control arm mounting brackets made up exc for the final 4 holes each; locator template made up (not shown, oh yeah) rod ends and connector bolts lined up to be installed.

I am just now at the point that I can start laying out the frame piece mods.  Due to all the running around in circles yesterday (didn' have this, couldn't find that) I know I won't make my deadline today of having it rollable but I am not going to hurry this aspect. It will not be too far off.  I'm getting bugged by people who want me to WORK.... as in real work. So I can't keep ignoring them.

tuesday morning update. NOT the news....... but things are getting closer. I was very optimistic in my hopes for having the frame done by now; but there are always a few distractions when 3 kids and a business is involved  ::) :P :-\

I did get the new frame piece well along; pockets are cut in; one of them is now reinforced with 1/4" backing plate and drilled; I have to locate the other and do the same.

THEN....... then.....
the tedious, time-consuming job of making this new frame piece fit the existing frame as tightly as possible then weld in place. That is just try then grind, try then grind, over and over as much as it takes.

On the upside, I am getting happier about my welding all around. I took the Lincoln Welding course about 3 lifetimes ago but STICK and MIG are very different, for anyone thinking of starting or doind a self teach.

Anyway
the frame piece so far:

well decided to put in a couple of hours. Turned into 3...... I GOTTA start getting some work done :(

Got the frame member insert finished as far as prep goes; pockets are cut; I have welded in 'reverse' pockets; ie it is reinforced everywhere I have cut a piece away; on the inside of the pockets.  I can't finish drilling two of the holes out full size yet as I need to use them as guides once I get the piece installed into the car itself; but it is no big deal.

I have added a 1/4" backing plate to the existing rectangular member for additional strength (same as already done on the right side); it extends down below the bottom of the tube as you can see.

The upper control arm mounting brackets are done; drilled; holes all drilled out; nuts welded in place. 

Despite my best efforts to avoid getting any welding splatter into any threads, I still got some contamination in a few when welding the nuts to the mounting brackets. I don't have a tap of every size on hand so I made up a thread chaser from one of the bolts I am using. That with a bit of oil and it worked great!!But this is the type of little time burner that uses up the hours, too........ ::)

The fiddling with this frame insert piece has taken a fair bit of time; I don't remember it taking so long with the other side (already done WHEW) but I am sure it took more as I was also figuring stuff out for the first time.

Right now my goal is to have the new piece inserted by the time I get the wheels and front hub assy's back from the machine shop; - maybe later this week. That will put the car within reach of having all 4 wheels on the ground again!!  O0

well no pix today; or until that frame "cassette" is in place. Man o man I HATE grinding!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(

but that is all I can do now; the fit must be very tight or at least as tight as possible so it is grind a bit, test fit, grind a bit, test fit....... and so on.

So hopefully it will happen in the next few days; I am getting a bit busy with paying work and that is a distraction.

so just written updates till I can show an installed piece.

BUT I am curious; there are a few people watching and I am wondering what, if anything, they are getting out of it; sometimes you think you are talking to yourself.....  ??? so don't be afraid to say something or let me (us?) know what you might be working on.

thx
GP

I am new to this forum but have read your build thread and look forward to seeing your updates.  I an in the very early stages of building a custom mid engined car using a number of fiero parts.  I will be fabricating the chassis, suspension and body from scratch.    Your rear suspension setup looks interesting, are you going to use the stock lower control arm or are you making your own?  Post lots of pics, your build is going great.  O0

FYI for another great build site see www.grabercars.com  not fiero related but lots of great build info.

Keep the updates coming.

hey Chris thanks for responding; sometimes you feel like you're talking to the bathroom mirror..... so it is good to know that someone is learning from my mistakes.
Just as a note to you; I am sure you have a pretty good knowledge of what you are getting into; I have (sometimes) the same 'dream'....... I really love the idea of a longitudinal V8 in a GT40 body. Complete custom frame and engine and suspension and all that. But this project is curing me, ....... at least for now!

To set the stage here:
I am probably about as well set up as most private types could be; fairly good experience with cars (I have owned - and I guess worked on - over 45); I have a good powerful MIG welder, metal bandsaw; big drill press (what a great machine that is!) large 60gal/7.5hp air compressor; bench grinder; good solid steel work bench; all the hand tools etc etc etc and so on.........
and this is STILL quite a challenge. It is a LOT of time. Maybe I just work slow, I dunno, (don't think so) but you have to be prepared to wait and be unbelievably patient. Not trying to discourage anyone, just to help them know beforehand what this kind of thing would take.

But in about another wk or 2 I am hoping to have wheels on it and be starting my engine/trans install (unless I get busy with work) so that is my incentive. It is finally getting closer!

Rear susp: yes the lower control arm works perfectly (just by fluke, but I'll take it!) with the wheel/brake setup I am using.  It prob isn't clear (forget what pix I have put up) but the new upper control arm HAS to connect at the frame level. No way around it; I did NOT want to do that but it is the only way that would work so... that is what I have done.

Yup; I'll post pix as before; and mistakes and oversights and so on; this is supposed to HELP someone so ....... I hope it does!
gp

Quietly enjoying every post here; look forward to them actually, even when I'm checking in from home via dial-up.   :)

A recent & unexpected shift in the availability of a house we've been looking at for a while has put most of our projects which involve me making a mess in the garage on hold for at least a year.   :-\  So for now, I'm living vicariously through others' build threads.  ;)

Hey, that guy in the mirror is a good listener.  I wish he'd put some clothes on tho!

We're watching....... That should make you feel better Graeme.   ;)

Now you're talking motor in and wheels on, I'm getting nervous.

Gary, oh master of the angle grinder.........
I HATE grinding so much it is putting me off the work I have to do now (grind-testfit-grind-testfit etc etc )

maybe we can work a deal???? Like you grind and I help you do almost anything else?
huh? huh? whaddya say?

Don; sounds interesting on the house deal; then you can clean the cylinder heads in your OWN kitchen sink and do heat tempering in your OWN oven and fun stuff like that!

and since someone is watching I will make every effort to list mistakes and oversights in the hopes that it keeps someone else from making them. That is what these things are made for. That and mudders, I guess.  If there are special requests dont hesitate to ask for more info, pix or details and i'll do my best.

thx for responding!  The echo isn't quite so loud now...... ;)
 :D

well got my second 3.4 dohc engine, 5 spd and ECM package and wiring harness over the wknd.  Had fun with "Strengths of Materials 0101".........

The main point learned is that you shouldn''t try to pick up a 1200 lb object with an 800lb-capable hoist.......... :o

Sheared a 1/2" grade 8 bolt  ::)right thru its mounting bracket. Fortunately I didn't have the whole load on it at that point so the thing only dropped a tiny bit back onto the wood in the back of the pickup.  Nice, SPRUNG, receiver........ :P

So I took the Harley Davidson School of Engineering approach to it. I made the bracket 4 times bigger. Then, just to make life simpler, I stripped the load a bit.  They gave me the ENTIRE front cradle ass'y: engine, trans, cradle, control arms, struts, wheels, brakes, steering, ECM, wiring harness etc. It only took them about 10 minutes.  So I took off the struts, wheel ass'ys and control arms. Almost 200 lbs I would guess. It has already gone for scrap.

Amazing what you can do with a front end loader and a big torch...... ::)

Environmental concerns? huh? Safety? huh? what.....ME wear safety glasses (or even SUNglasses?!?!?) when I am using a BIG cutting torch? Why?
every imaginable fluid all over the ground....... gas spraying in the guys eyes when he takes the bolt cutter to everything.....including the fuel lines. Ooops... gimme a minute, fellas......... 8)

But it is here and so that is the weekends work done. Back at the ranch; I am getting my front wheels 'trimmed' slightly. When I mocked up the front brake and caliper assy's (final time around) to figure out the new caliper mounting brackets I got a bit of interference with the very inner spoke "V" of the wheel and the edge of the caliper. So I am getting just my front wheels trimmed 'a tad'. Front and back are slightly different for offset, so I  won't be rotating them anyway for any reason.

That is it; should get the wheels back to take into the machine shop today prob; can go back to.........yuch.... grinding. Gary didn't apply to take over that task so I guess I am stuck with it..

Oh well.
Soon it will be time for another bottle of gas for the mig welder. Getting low.
more tomorrow I think.
g

Is something wrong with the first engine you have (had?), or...  ?

well Don a couple of things at work in the back of my mind... all pretty much equally important. Least of all is the fact that I am a junk collector. That doesn't enter the picture at all here.  ;)

This is out of a 'runner' ......... the car got hit and so that is 'supposed' to be the reason it was out of action.  This is, like the first one, a complete engine/trans/ECM package. That is important. The ECM is a tad different in the manual version and the manual engines actually are rated at a few more HP than the autos.  There is not a total, drop-in compatibility between them.

I never heard the first one run but knew that it blew a timing belt, so it is a non-interference engine but......... if it blew the belt at 7,000 rpm when it might not be a totally non-interference (with older springs and maybe some valve float).....

So this one is an insurance policy. Also, and as I said, equally important..... is the transmission. They don't make them like that anymore. Only made 'em for 3 yrs in fact. Non-service item from GM; ie you DON"T service it; you just replace the WHOLE thing.....!!! yup. I verified that with GM.

And it gives me a complete, not-too-chopped-up wiring harness with ALL sensors etc in place..... and the proper ECM and chip and the tranny too. So all in all I thinkit was worth it. I don't have to worry about spares etc pretty much at all. I have a 3rd engine only - well, mostly..... in pieces in case.

So......back to the frame piece that I have successfully avoided for the past 4 days.... :P

Does that mean that the old engine is junk? I could use the short block as a boat anchor (seriously with no pun intended). I need a heavy chunk of metal for a mooring anchor of my 40 foot boat. 

LOL
and I thought I had given up on fishing-related things!!  ;)
well Brian it is nice to know that my swap is going to be useful to someone  ;D but you'll have to wait a bit. I am getting hints that there may be a rod bearing or rod issue or SOMEthing with my engine.......
and altho I have 3, the concensus is that "3 or 4" seems to be the 'about right' number to get a decent bottom end.  Maybe it is just that guys take it 7000 rpm a little too frequently? don't know. But there seems to be something...
So I think I should be careful about sending one to such a high performance ending...   8)

I am done with that ball joint press for now anyway..... if you want to pick it up let me know.

well ho-hum. The last frame piece is in place. Gotta weld it up solid, but it is in there and it is accurate.
first is the rear-most portion of the frame; prepped for the new piece to go in. The last 1/2" of fitting was slow and fussy but that is the way it goes. I didn't want any big gaps to fill up........ ::)

next is the corresponding front piece; again; ready for the new piece to go into place.

and this is the left rear, tacked into place!! ta da!!

In other news; I got my bare wheels back today so I can take them into the machine shop tomorrow.  In the pic I have (crudely) indicated the area where the interference between the wheel and the caliper happens....... so they have to trim off a little bit.

I don't want to do that kind of thing with a dremel or grinder; I want it done evenly and so it wont affect balance etc.

Some interesting trivia and side tracks.......
to get the axle end nuts off the Lumina I needed a 36 mm socket. It dwarfs my impact gun........ but it got the job done!  I previously did one of those by hand out in a field... no compressed air........   ::) 4 FOOT long pipe on my 1/2" bar and it was a struggle.........


My 1/2" swivel joint didn't like being attached to the gun........ but it DID do its job before it fell apart!!!  ;D

It really pays to use quality tools sometimes........
I betcha I bought this die grinder bit (for steel) about 15 yrs ago and it HAS removed a LOAD of metal. Abused by the friendly neighbourhood mechanic and everything.

Still works altho the chips are getting smaller. What a payback!

Enough for tonite; tomorrow I take my 2 front whls to the machine shop for 'adjusting' and weld up that frame member. I was simply tired of getting spattered in liquid metal drops tonite....... :(

So with luck in about a wk I'll have wheels on it. That means the engine swap becomes a reality!!  Seriously tho I have to figure out the rear brakes; I am using the caddy rears with emergency brake built in to be legal.....  I have no idea what I have to do to mount them yet.......and then I plan on replacing pretty much all the brake lines. My emerg brake cable is not very good so I guess I am replacing that too.  That will all take some time.
But progress, nonetheless.
 ;)

O my god...that is sooooo dangerous.  I know two people that lost teeth that way.  Good thing they were at least wearing safety glasses.

Aaron

.

lost their teeth - hmmm - trying to get a mind picture of someone undoing a stubborn bolt with their teeth. Wow; that's impressive. You know some TOUGH dudes  LOL  :D

You're right tho'; that stuff is not made for use with an impact wrench. I had to rush/hurry/shortcut at that time and knew what the potential might be and used extra care accordingly.

Today I welded the rest of the frame insert up pretty solid; still some more to do but had a bunch of running around to do.
A couple of items that struck me (thoughts, that is  ;) ) regarding doing GOOD welding.

I made a trip JUST to get a different shade welding lens for my helmet. I had one with a #10 and one with a #8 lens. Guess what. The #8 was too light and the #10 was too dark. I didn't really think that a #9 would make that much difference, but it REALLY did. Being able to see your weld perfectly is such a help.

The other thing I want to mention to anyone who is going to be welding (mig, that is) is to make sure you have lots of shielding gas pressure and no breeze coming in from outside etc. It doesn't take much to affect the shielding gas pattern and suddenly you have ...... spatter and mess.

Little things but they make a real difference.

I found that it is a ridge inside my front wheels, not the spokes (at least not too much) that is causing the interference between the brake calipers and the rim. So I will get it turned a bit. There is a lot of excess meat on the wheel and I don't feel uncomfortable doing that.

So I'll have custom wheels I guess........ oh well.  I didn't want to do that; I wanted, as much as possible, to be able to use "off the shelf" stuff.
So back to the machine shop with the wheels; get them done; prob will take a wk or more but there is still lots to do.

Hopefully something exciting tomorrow. I also have to work a bit; make a few bucks here and there....... ::)

well got this far; now that the new frame insert piece is pretty much solid I am putting in some supplemental steel and reinforcement.
Got to make up for the part I cut away to get access to the frame where I had to put the insert. So a cardboard template is made up........ which has its limits as you will see....  :P

traced onto some wide 1/8" stock that I figured would be handy someday.... O0

then cut on one of my fave timesavers; the bandsaw....... O0 O0 O0

and this is as far as I got.
Of note: the most difficult part of this piece is the curve, so I did it first (more or less) and then will make everything else fit around it.

The grinder is in the pic as a memorial. RIP grinder. It started slowing down and then just gave out. No sparks or blow up; just slowed down and died. Hats off, everyone.... :'(

It was a $29.95 cheapo at Walmart and it did great.

So an unexpected trip to Princess where just YESTERDAY (I was there but too cheap >:() and noticed angle grinders on sale.....

To finish; this is my 'centering equipment' for locating the new frame piece. I located the centres between both the front and the back cradle mounts and then used string and calipers to check from side to side for identical distances comparing existing and new piece distances. It worked quite well.

BEfore I trusted it, I measuered from side to side to the cradle bolts to verify that I did, in fact have centre.
(it was  ;) )

well after a day of thinking about things, specifically the fact that I am missing 3 of the 4 steel plates that do top and bottom duty at the rear cradle bushings, I am now considering Garys suggestion that I simply make them out of steel. That is something that (at least now) I have no qualms about doing.

He also mentioned that the 88's were solid mounted anyway and I have to think that THAT would be a reason why they handle better as well as other aspects of redesign.

So I am going to think about making steel bushings - not solid steel (I don't have a lathe and even if I did there is no need for such heavy fabbing) but I'll look around and see what I can come up with.

Busybusy with real work and so I have to take a bit of time away; some things are happening in the background tho so not all is lost.

well I am FINISHED with welding on the frame!  What a LONG haul but it is DONE!
I missed the meeting; we had a family 'do' last nite so that took precedence. I hope to make the next one.

Gary (if you see this)- I sent you a note or email regarding elect diags for that dash stuff; LMK and I'll get what I can.

Anyway...... all reinforcement, patching, everything is finished. Took some pix but will put them up later. For a change of pace I started stripping the motor/trans I got last wk. Took off the A/C compressor (I won't be using it) and EGR stuff (not that either  ;D ) as the car is an 85 and so doesn't have to pass emissions now....

Tagging the wiring harness carefully. Found that the "710" cap was very loose and when I removed it, there was HEAVY - like large particles - sand under it....... uh oh.
I often see engines in the wrecking yard with the oil cap gone; what a quick way to ruin an otherwise good motor. So I am of mixed feelings on this one now: I think I will clean it off, pull the plugs and squirt a bit of oil in the cylinders then see if I can crank it over jumping it from my car. Don't know if that is asking for trouble but it should hopefully just spin without a big torque reaction. Guess I'll find out!
The power steering pump which is mounted up at the front of the intake valley is going too; I know Sandy did a bang up job on his power steering install but I am going manual at least for now. Between those two items alone (A/C and ps) I am taking off 15 to 20 lbs!
I will have to put in dummy 'idler' pulleys to replace them but I knew that in advance. This swap is pretty well documented.
Well, off to work!
gp

well not such a great day.
Pic one.
Pretty much finished strippind down the engine and decided to make sure it WAS a runner like City Auto (Peterborough) said it was. Hooked up the car to it and jumped the starter and.....
it was seized. A bit.
Slowly, after melting a screwdriver tip and bumping it both ways by hand, it started to move. And THEN.....
it puked up about a cylinder full of really heavy, brown water out of the #2 exhaust port. LOTS of it; all over the driveway (pic 2)  Oh well. When I took off the exh manifold there was water in THAT, but I was sort of hoping that somehow it was rain water that got into (only) the manifold while it was sitting in my driveway.
Bummer but not a showstopper.
I still have the first one, which I will go ahead and use. And the wiring harness came off in very good shape; alll nicely labelled and nothing broken etc etc and the trans HOPEfully is still good....... time will tell on that I guess.

In other news; frame work is finally finally finally done. Do you sense some relief?  :D  Had to provide access holes for the bolts to reach thru to the new upper control arm mounting plate. See pic 1.
So they have to come thru the back of the existing frame.  You can't see thru the top holes (yet) as the frame behind has to be drilled.  I used the plate's bolt holes as guides to get starter holes then went around from the inside to drill thru with my hole saw. I used this extra long pilot bit (could have used 1/4" round cold rolled as well) so that while the hole saw was drilling away on the angle it wouldn't "push" the drill bit against the guide hole and thus elongate the hole (while the hole saw was doing its thing).

Clear as mud; maybe you know what I mean.   ::)

anyway
some things i have to deal with; the shift cables come at the tranny from the 'back' now...
it being from a front wheel drive setup;
I put my S10 CV joint ends on the Lumina axles; takes about a minute once you know about that little clip..... ::)

and here is the setup with the axles attached and wheels and all; to measure overall width to reverify that it all fits the body.
It will.  The angle of the axles looks extreme here because it is. I only have 3 1/2" of space below the cradle and I am sure that I can't have it that low... :o

thats it for today.
Gotta get moving with the other motor now and hope that City will be reasonable on this one.
gp

well lets see; lots of little things. I allowed myself to get sidetracked by doing an autopsy on the engine; it is pretty easy to strip with air tools - esp when you dont really care about it anymore.
first one is a front view of the dreaded timing belt. Remember this is simply a 60-V6; in a lot of ways (not all) almost identical to the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4 pushrod engines.
 Top two sprockets on each side are the cams of course; the big top centre one is the power steering pump (it will be deleted anyway and an idler pulley put in); directly below this is an idler again and then below THAT - full of holes - is the cam timing drive sprocket. It is driven from behind; directly off the - yes - standard cam location (directly above the crank.)
So there is your little primer on the 3.4 dohc motor. Sort of a hybrid in that they adapted a whole setup to connect to the original camshaft location instead of doing it directly from the crank.
So that means that behind this is a plain old timing chain and gear connected to the crank. Oh well. It winds to 7K from the factory so I guess it all works.


next one shows the REAL difference between the 2.8 and the dohc motor; the head and cam carrier is removed from one side obviously...... lots of stuff goes into it!!

and yet another look at some rusty cylinders and ... notice how the one that was full of water is actually the cleanest.....hmmm (on the left in case the pic isnt clear enough.)
and the worst culprit.

oh well.

Here is one of the differences between the 284 trans and the 282 and others; this one has a long support for the right side (longer) axle shaft. This is supported by an adapter  that forms part of the engine mount; I think I like the idea. This pic might not be too clear but the 'second' part of the axle - with the CV joint -  goes out to the right and the left end of this bolts to the transmission.
The clutch is a pull type; something I didnt really think about till trying to get the engine and trans apart.  The actuator fork has to be connected to the throwout bearing so that it doesn' simply 'slide away'.
A lot of tugging and wrestling and it finally ....... well......broke apart. It doesn't look like it was long for this world anyway.

the second pic is another diff between this and other motors; it has a built in oil cooler. Directly above the orange filter is a 'can'. That is the oil/water cooler. Engine coolant is pumped thru it and so keeps it at coolant temp; which is usually nice and low for oil temps; IIRC they are typically in the 250F range. On the other hand you prob don't want it to get TOO cool (possible?) or it may not flow into the small clearances as well as it should.
I plan on replacing this with a conventional remote filter and cooler setup but will have to check out the connections.

Today got the engine apart from the trans. I am going to see if I can/should just keep/adapt the exisitng engine mounts to the fiero cradle.
The cradle: hmmmmm .......well I am now thinking of building STEEL bushings; I understand the 88s were solid mounted and EVERY front engine/rear drive car I can think of does NOT have this equivalent for engine and suspension mounting.... (double rubber) so steel is on the list.  Went out and bought about $100 worth of hole saws today (we'll see if I got the right sizes ???) and will start figuring out what I will do about this.
I don't know if I will want to make more than one set; or maybe several at the moment as hole saw WEAR will be an issue. They are kinda pricey at the 3 1/2" diameter size and they do not last forever. Even the good ones have teeth break off sometimes the firstuse so I am going to have to see.
Will start a separate thread on that I think.

So I am at the point of making bushings and then painting up the cradle and starting to locate the (prev) motor and trans on it. This one will go for a spare for now.
gp

well progress of sorts; I removed the 3.4 liter water pump from the trans and it is now down to a block/crank/pistons. I'll remove that stuff and visually check the block over for cracks, core shift and general condition to see if it would be a good candidate for a hi po rebuild.  Maybe someday I'll get to the turbo section of this build up  :o

the first pic is the bare 284 trans; you get a better view of that axle support shaft. The trans is sitting on a milk crate for a sense of scale; I am sure it is a noticeable amount bigger than the 282 I had and the 4 spd earlier on. It sure it heavier, which stands to reason. It is on a more powerful motor and working against a much heavier car.... so it would have to be!

Next is the remains of the Lumina cradle assy; I have to remove the motor and trans mounts and bolt them to engine No 1 that is still waiting in the wings. Then start placing it all over the fiero cradle to see how all this might fit. I COULD use the fiero engine mounts but I would have to modify them at least some to suit this even tho it IS a 60*V6 and sort of bolts up.

So getting the cradle ready is the next step. Poly bushings for now just to keep things moving along.

well a bit done but the combo of very hot humid weather, being behind in house-type stuff and having to do workwork has cut into car time. I guess that was inevitable. To speed up or at least not slow down any more than necessary I am foregoing the steel bushings for now.
Don kindly dropped off some of the parts that I have managed to lose.... THANKS Don! so the cradle bushings are no longer an issue. What IS an issue is refinishing the cradle. My sandblaster makes SUCH a mess that I don't think I want to try to use it without containing the sand (which costs money too!) somehow. And the idea of working inside a plastic sheet enclosure 31C temps didn't appeal to me. So grinding and wire brushing was started. Boring and time consuming and slow. And the bare steel is rusting again almost overnite!!!! >:(
So I am going to wait till I can set up the sandblaster I guess. In the meantime I stripped the 3.4 block and had my first real look inside one. Interesting....... how the GM mind works.
As I mentioned I think, this is a hybrid type or (better term) adapted motor from a pushrod design.
So the old camshaft, which USED to drive both a distributor AND the oil pump as well as being a bumpstick, is now solely there to drive the oil pump. LOOK at the size of this thing!! And I figure it weighs about 5lbs........ or even more.... what a parasite!!
ON the nice to have side....... it has a windage tray and if you know where to look, it even has the oil pump pickup brazed to the oil pump body to keep it from falling out due to ....... well, ANY reason. One of the old hot rodders tricks and a good one. Who did that? Dunno. I doubt it would be stock, tho.

So this thing has a regular crank sprocket with 'dummy' camshaft and gear, mesh chain with tensioner, then a timing belt that runs 4 'more' cams.......
LOTS of places to save parasitic losses but it would cost a bundle...

just a bit of detail......
in this pic you'll notice some HEAVY, flaking rust.....
top two yellow arrows.....
yup.
that is the crankshaft. I dunno but I think when a crankshaft has really heavy rust on it that the engine should be looked at a bit.
Yellow circle is the spot of brazing that holds the oil pickup to the oil pump body; maybe never needed but really cheap insurance....... if the pickup falls out the pump runs dry. Like right away.  Not a good thing.

The crank bearings were all scored, by the way. No surprise there, given everything else....... ::)

The red arrow shows a 'tube' shape in the oil pump. The pressure relief spring is in there. I am going to open up the pump - NOT recommended to be done casually, by the way!! the gears have to go in the SAME way they came out!! (ie you have to mark them)
But by increasing the pressure relief spring rating you can boost the output pressure of the pump. I am going to get a stock, standard V8spring (about $3) and compare them. IF they are identical (might be) then I can do a simple upgrade to an engine known for bearing failure for about another $3!! Put in a Z28 spring is all!

well maybe a major hangup in the works.
Last nite I got the fiero cradle up on a suitable stand and then got the 3.4 engine/trans combo up above it. WOW it looks huge....... pix to follow.

Anyway.
the TRANS end stick out a LOT. Ie into the wheel well area. I am pretty sure it is going to conflict with the new frame member I have put in........ ???  Does NOT look good at this point; it is going to be VERY very close if it fits at all. So probably not workable. I watched and checked and got pix from people on the PULLEY end (regarding 3.4 swaps) but since nobody has put a 284 in a fiero I couldn't get any pix on that particular item - and basically assumed that it would fit! So now is my lesson.
I will fiddle with the engine/trans and get them positioned pretty close to where I think they should fit and then transfer that to the frame and see. But at this point I am 99% sure I will have to make some adjustments. Damn. My oversight and now it is biting me.
The 284 trans looks HUGE in comparison; it must be a lot bigger than a 282 (I had one here and I am sure it is).

So maybe later today if the rain will back off for a bit I'll do some fiddling with that.
I am into a material management situation: the garage is so full I have to work barely inside the door using the engine hoist so that puts me outside in the rain and I am a suck.......

signed....
not happy in Ottawa :(

Had a visitor; nice to see you again, Nick! I even wore my cleanest T shirt for the occasion!  ::)

...well the assembly does fit after all. Nice when the theory does work out. And I have a whole 1/2" or so of clearance on each end/side but that is enough.   :P
Now to get it solidly mounted.
First is the 3.4 and trans sort of sitting on the fiero cradle. To the best of my knowledge only one person has done this (using the 284 that is) and I can't get hold of him for guidance/input etc.
Of note: the fiero cradle is SMALLER than the lumina cradle.......

I am going to reuse the trans rubber mount only as it has a curve to it that follows the underside of the trans housing. The engine mounts will be from a 75 dodge 1/2ton with 318; 2 whl drive version. I didn't make this up; it is a common mount for swaps due to its compact size and construction.
I cut off the trans mounting plate/area from the lumina cradle; it is already drilled to match the mount so why not? I will have to reinforce it and suitably attach it to my cradle.  Circled in yellow.
The lumina cradle was bigger and a
I should have a sample dodge mount this aft to check out. I'll make up custom mounting plates for them (2 req'd) and have to figure out how to attach them really securely. With only 1/2" of clearance I don't want the engine to move hardly at all.

So in the next couple of days I want to get the engine/trans securely mounted and then I am ready to start test fitting the ass'y in the frame!!

Wheels etc are NOT back yet from the m/c shop; I know they are busy and I have lots to do still.....  :o

well a quick update; I have been positioning and making the transmission and motor mounts that adapt to the cradle and got the (rear) trans mount and the right front motor mount done; it is a LOT of fiddling and checking and remeasuring and very time consuming since I don't have the luxury of ROOM or clearance..........
I'll get some pix today but I am getting behind on some work so have to do that for a bit.
This part is slowslowslow but I am getting thru it; one more motor mount to go and it will bolt up!! But this is where a swivel joint on the engine hoist and maybe a tilt leveller would have been nice!!

The machine shop still has the front whls etc...... I am getting nervous..... :-[ since he is going on a lengthy holiday......... VERY soon.

What to do what to do.???  I can't put my front end together if he doesn't get his work done.

well a quickie then I gotta run. Falling behind in work a bit but I want to keep the fieroball rolling to some degree.

First of all, any 'local' people - I am having a hell of a time with City (Auto) Recyclers in Peterborough. These are the guys who promised me that the 3.4 TDC/trans was out of a runner and that the car was in there because it got hit, NOT because of engine probs.  So my advice is to stay away and to warn anyone else to stay away too.
If they DO make good on getting me an engine I'll post that here.
But I have phoned any number of times and no return call and no action.

I am waiting and hoping for my front stuff to come back from the m/c shop this wk......
but as stated before it isn't a show stopper really; just it would be nice to have WHEELS on it as extra incentive.

I have been working on adapting my engine/trans setup to the fiero cradle. That is pretty much unexplored territory, so I am making it up as I go along.
There are and will be probs but I don't think they are insurmountable.

So after MUCH trying and measuring and adjusting and moving and shimming and hoisting and rehoisting and..........anyway
I got the engine and cradle sitting relative to each other in a way that works and should fit. I must mention that I HAVE to put the engine/trans in based on measurements, NOT convenience or (unfortunately) axle length. This means I will prob have to get one axle modified somehow or other when I get this mounting done. Oh well so be it. The axle itself shouldn't be a weak spot; ie if the 'ends' blow up they can be rebuilt and reinstalled etc.

The other thing is I want to reuse (as much as possible) the true motor mounts that are on the engine/trans - as that is how GM decided to support it, probably with more knowledge of the needs than me.

Guys who commonly do this swap adapt the 2.8 V6 mounts that are on the cradle to fit the 3.4 motor. I don't like this approach, personally, altho I am not sure how many of them have actually had problems.  I know SOME have. Motor mounts have separated and at least one guy had a big part of the motor (some aluminum stuff in front) get busted off by the dogbone.

Anyway
that is my goal and so I am trying to provide mounts on the fiero cradle where the 3.4 setup needs them.
Refer to pic one......
points 1, 2 and 3 are the stock 2.8 mount positions for whatever reason.
Points 4, 5 and 6 are the positions of the stock 3.4/284 mounts. Reverse of the 2.8, or at least not very close, are they?
In addition, the support at point #3 is as shown in the next pic:

The right one is the fiero/2.8 mount at that point. It is a thin support that sits on a VERY bouncy rubber mount (red box). It can't possibly provide much support to the heavier 3.4 altho guys are doing just that. In fact, they even cut it back a bit to make it fit. Standard procedure. On the left is the 3.4 engine mount that goes in the right rear corner. It attaches to the engine in the same 2 places as the fiero mount PLUS one more at the side, THEN has a stiffer mount under it. So as much as possible I am keeping that setup.

oh yeah; that mount is then connected by a cross piece (that I will keep) to the mount on the other side, just for extra strength.

So in a nutshell; I put the cradle and the engine/trans unit on a very sturdy 'table' so that they are separate and I can move them independently. THen I shimmed and moved etc both till I got them where I wanted relative to each other.

I am using mounts from a '75 era dodge truck 318 V8; I didn't find them; other guys use them and they are VERY compact which I need. I can't afford much movement; I just want to soak up some vibration. First pic shows the heavy 1/4" thick angle bracket that is most of the new right front engine mount. I had to drill AND dimple it to accept the locating 'bump' on the new mount.

I had decided to cut out the chunk of the Lumina cradle that fit the trans mount and reuse it. Well, it is ok ..........NOW. It is so rusty that I ended up doing all sorts of reinforcement on it but it is done.  Next pic shows the trans mount in place and the right front engine mount done too. Both are welded solid.

Next to do is the trickier right rear then the motor is ready to bolt up!  I have to fit and tack everything in place then take it apart
Next is the cradle with mods:
1 is the new trans mount; all done.
2 is the new right front engine mount, all done.
3 is where I had to cut off a bracket from the original fiero engine mount; it interfered with the cross piece that will tie in the 2 dohc engine mounts;
4 is the next area of work; the last engine mount. I also took the opportunity to take the wire wheel to it to clean it up; I will be welding to it in place and don't want to have to try to clean things up then! Any movement would be disasterous....
5 shows one of the tie rod mounts for the toe in adjust. While I don't need these anymore I am not going to worry about them unless they are an obstruction to the new exh system. If so I"ll chop em off.

next shot

little things......
I have gone thru about 3 boxes of rubber gloves. That is about 300 of course; on my 4th to 5th box.......... no end in sight............ but I recommend them to anyone!

THIS is why you use safety goggles and leather gloves and (I wear) a dust mask and everything you can.
That was a virtually new wheel; you can see a piece of it beside it.... that is how big it was when it let go. No harm; you ALSO have to use it so that you NEVER have the plane of the rotation in line with any of your body, or at least as little as possible.

I found almost 1/2 of the wheel over 1/2 way down the driveway last nite (the garage door was open) so it went a good 30 ft I guess.  Think about it..........

The other pic is the stock 3.4 engine mount bracket; I had to cut away a bit of it's 'vertical section' so I decided to replace it with a stiffener. Never ultimately take away strength if you can possibly help it.

little update on my consumer protection issue..... (City Recyclers...)
talked to the 'boss'..... yesterday (Tues); he assured me he had a 'good' 94 engine.
That will work but there is SOME minor difference....... I will have to look into it.

Anyway he promised me an answer (on its condition) by the end of the wk or he'll refund my money. We'll see. I don't have much faith in anything I got from him now; the car was NOT a 'runner' like they said.
Oh well. I will pass along what happens.

Today I got around to working on the final engine mount; at position number 6 on the sketch above; it is the right REAR one and not easy to do since the mount is out 'in space'.......
But got it figured out, the pieces made and mostly welded in place.  I have to weld in a few gussets for my own peace of mind is all and that one is done. At that point I will be able to actually bolt the engine/trans to my cradle!!!!

Of note; I had to mount/remove/remount the engine on the cradle a few times during the fitting process and I am VERY pleased with how it lines up on the 2 mounts that are in place. As it should, yes, but no binding and it drops into place nicely. Good.

I have a lot of other commitments the next few days so I don't know if I will be able to get at it much but I am getting closer.........

thanks for looking; hope it is of interest or even some help to someone.
 8)
gp

ok so FINally get the cradle done. All that had to be done was to finish the one mount and remove the bushings and prime it, but it took this long.

so first is the right FRONT mount (done before, yes) and next is the finally finished right REAR mount; a bit more complicated as the mount is simply farther from the frame but no big deal.

and here is the trans mount.......

now all that is left is to remove the bushings. I am going to do a separate little thread; I did learn something on this so will pass it along.

For the record I used the same method as for the control arm bushings: lacquer thinner, flame and a POP....... ;)

but a controlled POP.......

so the separate thread will take up a few pix I won't bother putting up here. Suffice to say that it seemed to help to jam a screwdriver in between the rubber material and the steel sleeve; I am presuming it helped the lacquer thinner get in there and do its job of 'flame promotion'........

and at the end of the day I have a complete cradle, motor mounts done, bushings removed; steel sleeves cleaned out and all primed with a heavy coat of brushed on primer.
It will have to do for now; I will worry about 'pretty' after it is running. And during winter.  O0

well I ended up sitting here while Tylers party/meeting went on; rats!!!!! I was not happy but things didn't work out very well and I wasn't happy about it. Anyway.

while I wait for the primer to dry hard (not sure I will bother painting over top of it but prob...... (still lots to do as I am finding out!) .....

I decided to continiue getting ready for the engine to actually go into the car. Cleaning out the engine compartment a bit, but most of all starting to sort out the shifter issues.

Nobody I can actually get hold of has done the 284 trans thing. Everyone doing the Z34 swap has reused a fiero trans of some sort and thus avoided shifter linkage (and other) issues.  So I have to figure this stuff out and move along (pretty soon! :o )

I don't think I will go into all the detail here unless asked; this is (evidently) a fairly specialized item and so it will be of limited interest.  Not sure yet if I will post anything on PFF..... we'll see.

First pic is a top view; the Lumina that the engine/trans came from obviously was in front of the driver...... so the shifter cables came at the trans from what is now the trunk area and from the centre of the trunk, at that.

Next is an 'end view' from the trans end to give an idea of the linkage itself; there are two parts to any of these "at-the-transmission" shifter linkages and they all seem to work more or less the same. That is good; it should help a bit.

One lever raises and lowers a shaft up/down to 3 positions or levels, and the other lever moves in a horizontal plane at each of those 3 different levels.  What I have to do is figure out how to make the fiero 5 spd shifter match up with the specific linkage position combinations to be able to get each gear......... ???

well first things first (HA; when did I ever do THAT properly!?!?)

I got a 5 spd shifter for a fiero Getrag trans from Dan; thanks, Dan! and swapped out the 4 spd that was in there.
Once I got the console plastic frame out of the way (handle CAREfully!!) it was about 2 minutes to swap them; the bolts and cables line up and change easily! Nice to have something work out!!  I also found over $5 down in the shifter tunnel area; fell thru the cracks I guess!!  So now I can retire early!!  About 4 hours early, I think........ 8)

By the way, in the confusion of the first pic is BOTH shifters; the stock 4 spd in place and the new 5 spd sitting loose on top of the stripped console.

The second is a 'sample' pic; one of about 60 that I took detailing the shift mechanism at the trans (I dont trust my memory for ANYthing!!!  ::) ) and it happens to show the 5th gear arrangement.

You can see in the pic:
the upper cable/rod (white end) is pushing the raise/lower lever to its farthest; thus raising the shaft as much as possible for this gear combo. At the same time, the lower cable/rod (black end) is pulling the horizontal lever towards the back (trunk) as much as possible.
This is the unique combo that gives me 5th.  Now to play with the gear shifter and see what IT does for me..... etc etc etc for all the gears!!

Obviously I want to change the direction that the cables come at the shift linkage; they are coming out from the 'tunnel' between the seats now and have to connect to the same levers at the trans.   This is about a 135 degree turn from where they are now.

This happens to be a 'junk 284' trans (sort of..... ::) ) that I am experimenting on and so it isn't the end of the world if something goes wrong. .....

one more pic to give an idea of what I am talking about:
This is from the engine end, obviously; and this is probably Neutral position judging by the horizontal lever. The raise/lower lever is free to move up and down and lets you select any gear from here.  The horizontal lever doesn't engage ANY gear in the middle position; it has to be pushed or pulled at one of the 3 levels. Thus, 3 levels X 2 positions each level = 6 gears (incl reverse) and then 'in between' is neutral.

Then go into my Fred Flintstone mode; (get into the engine compartment for the 500th time) and have my trusty helper row thru the gear positions so I can check and log the cable end positions.

soooooo..... my trusty helper pretending to drive a car that is 3 ft off the floor....... :D

so this is the cable end positions for 5th gear...... might as well stick with that one.
The white is the raise/lower and the left is ......gee....... the horizontal select.
Raise/lower is fully retracted and select is fully extended.

There is a very nice pattern emerging here.........  The combos of the cable end positions is matching the combos of lever positions, just not the levers themselves.

So I have to figure out how to connect the cables to the levers and adjust them, but I don't have to invent a new shifter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS is a BIG deal!!!
So that is my challenge. I have to turn the linkages ABOUT 135 degrees to line up and then make a 'cable end bracket' but that is do-able; I just need to figure it out and fab something up.

NICE; I am happy - this will work.

 ;D ;D ;D

but it is sunday and I have to have some work done for monday AM so prob no more car time today. Oh well; I can think about it while ...waiting for the paint to dry......
literally.

oh yeah; an little consumer update......
my friend (the boss...) at Peterboro's "CITY auto recyclers" didn't call back........

He said he would by friday. That would be a week ago LAST friday. He DID say that if he can't find anything that would work for me, then he would refund my money......hope he meant that because about the only thing I got for my trouble (and taking him at his word) was some hastily cut wiring harness and an ECM.  The trans appears to be dry and pretty much seized up..... the engine was a water pump and it is gone to a watery grave now (right, Brian? LOL)
so we will see if CITY lives up to their promise this time.

They promised me this was a 'runner'...... and that is why I am a bit PO'd.....

gp

She is in 10 feet of water (mud) in Big Rideau Lake. ^-^

wel a little update on the inactivity....... after a very slow spring and most of the summer things got REALLY busy; and probably will be that way for a bit. But like most of the aspects of this work, it is 'hurry up and wait' at the moment.   My apologies for the lack of updates etc etc to this thread but there are a LOT of other things that ALL come "first", unfortunately.....
But I DID get out for a bit to remind myself of where I was at and DID come up with a solution I think to the shifter puzzle.

There was a guy I was talking to thru PFF who said there was anOTHER guy that HE was in touch with (you following this?) who HAD done/used the 284 in his swap. This other guy was asking something like $1500-ish ($US) for the INFO (alone; no parts!) to do the trans adapting..........

So I am going to do it myself. I checked out the 'other guys' background a bit and there is a LOT of negative feedback via another website for non-delivery and non-performance so the last thing I am going to do is get involved with him....
and it isn't a really difficult thing to do here anyway. Just a bit of fabbing and time.

Anyway.
Upon 're-looking' at my cable and shifter connections issue: I realized that I MIGHT be into a conflict with the cable 'entry angle' (to the trans shift connection point) and the exhaust manifolds/system.
So I installed the exh manifold and a cross over pipe and YEP, sure seems like there could be.  First pic shows the direction I WAS all set to go with before having this 'amazing revelation'......

The 2nd pic shows the approx angle that the cables would be going AT the trans, so that is too close for my comfort. Maybe the height would be different but I don't want the cables any closer than they already have to be.

Soooooooo...............

the revised cable 'entry' angle to the shifter on the trans will be arranged like this.
I think the cable bending will not cause problems; I held the cables in the proposed position and had my helper 'row thru the gears' a bit and for what that was worth it didn't seem to have a lot of friction or bind.

So that is that. I have figured out the new shifter mechanism AT the trans.....
OF COURSE with the never ending attention of Mr. Murphy and his law(s)... the new shifter angle means that the bolt heads that hold the base plate of the shift mechanism to the trans are DIRECTly in the way of the 'up/down' lever.  (Pic 2)

I have to make a new base plate, new 'up/down' lever and modify the existing 'rotating' lever to adapt to this new angle.

Some little design considerations on that but nothing too difficult; need a few hours is the only difficult part there.

ONE thing (for everyone:)
FIERO shifters are UNIQUE. Don't throw them out, no matter WHAT they are (ie 4 or 5spd). From what I can tell, my (sort of typical) FWD trans is made for a conventional FWD shifter. Sort of like a cavalier, sunbird and a zillion others. The shift pattern of the shifter and the trans is standard and common.  The FIERO shifter is VERY different from any of those.........
And I would say it would be really hard to make one up and I would guess that they are (yes) discontinued like everything else. So while a lot of things COULD be mickey-moused together (various brackets and bits and pieces) there is a very FINITE number of these unique shifters around now and they are going to be a limiting factor in any future swaps.

Just an interim observation.......

Anyway.
I am involved (I think....) in a VERY large project (real, PAYing work).... which is a GOOD thing after the slow time this yr and so I will have to put in a lot of time at that which..... sigh.... means limited to no time on the car again. 

I AM at a point where I could put the engine on the cradle, LEAVE it in neutral, hook it up and try to run it but it would be VERY hard to do the shifter/cable work with the engine in the car. Much as that would be an incentive by itself. But the engine needs some gaskets and seals and I am actually going to fab up a custom intake manifold for it so it is not going to happen in the next couple of weeks....

Gary: you're still safe........ ::)   AND in the running.  (for SOME title  :-[ )
But getting the shifter sorted out is important of course and I am glad it is finalized at least in my head.

Other news:
Peterboro City Auto Recyclers has promised a refund but "they can't find the receipt......."  I guess I would be less unhappy if they had NOT claimed that engine 'was a RUNNER'...... when it obviously wasn't. 

My front wheels and brake parts remain at the machine shop; it is vacation time but that is over now so I am expecting to hear back before too too long and then I can bolt on the front wheels etc which would be good!! I am a bit concerned that after stripping all the stuff off the front of the car that when I install the new (slightly heavier) engine/trans that the REAR might cause the car to 'teeter' a bit on the supports.  (Still relying on gravity to hold it in place....)

That is it for now.  Next post should show the new mechanism for the cables to attach to the trans.
I am going to do my best to get in a BIT of time each wk to keep it moving.
thanks for reading and being patient and not putting up flames about being so @#(%*@&#% slow!!!!

Just curious--did a custom exhaust with a relocated or eliminated x-over ever enter the picture?

actually yes, Don, the stock "log" type exh manifolds are really pretty lousy from a performance point of view but they ARE so damn convenient that I am going to go with them for the time being. I am using TWO "REAR" manifolds (or fronts or whatever they were) as they are interchangeable that way.  They FIT, they are very COMPACT and that solves a problem. I will have to chop up the stock X-over tube to make it fit but that is no big deal; it will also become the 'exit' pipe to the muffler etc.  Not quite sure how I am going to do that but pretty soon I will have to get new tanks for the oxy acet torches so that I can start doing that work.  I don't think I want to MIG the exh system; I am more confident in gas welding it.

Again that is down the line a bit.....

I have the same crossover and cable clearance problem.  I have decided for now to keep the crossover and wrap it with header wrap.  Also making a sheath for the cables from the same.

Regarding the cables....  does Rodney D not make a 'kit' to convert the front drive 282 to Fiero usage?  While the 282 bv 284 parts may differ a bit, would not the actual 'technology' or problem solving be pretty mucch the same?  Don't know...just asking.

Don't worry about me... I'm hung up on welding new mounts and wiring.  I have my people working on a new 5 year plan.  Estimated completion winter 2010.   :'(

If you get your refund, you may want to look at this
http://www.usedottawa.com/classified-ad/82070

I had emailed when he wanted 1200.  and he said that the motor had been rebuilt (?) last year,  but he also seems to make it hard to see in action.  e.g doors broke, no battery .

hi Gary
I haven' t pursued Rodney's stuff so I just don't know what he has avail.

Yeah the header wrap would be a good idea; it looks like crap but it is a good idea.  So are the metal heat shields, which I may or may not be able to keep as I am carving up the stock exh so much.  They are made to 'clip on' to the stock shapes.

Is that the z34? I phoned and left a msg asking if it was an auto (which I suspect) or a manual ('93 - possible but doubtful) and no reply.

I might have to drive down to Peterboro to get my refund in person and in fact am sort of planning that. EArly saturday AM drive to peterboro's Tim Hortons for coffee.....  He DID say he would give it to me but words and actions are so different... ;)

Am still hoping to make more progress this fall. HAving said that, I am going out to lookat a possible 2nd house purchase so...... if we DO get it my urgent need to clone myself will increase that much more.....  :(   ::)

good to hear from you; guess you will be 'blessed' with a bunch of new smiling faces pretty soon .... >:D

well it is sunday AM; have put up with about a 36 hour bout of stomach flu or some reasonable facsimile thereof...... lotsa fun.
Hope the drive and meet and so on were a LOT of fun and my hat is off to Don and Sasha for doing that. I wouldn't have been able to go even if I DID have a running car..... and that is my mentality on that stuff; I just don't feel right about it until my car is actually RUNNING..... so I am a prisoner of my own device in a sense....

I think it is late enough that I can 'make noise' now......  so today's task is to make a trans shift linkage adapter so that the fiero's cables will connect to and operate the shift mechanism at the 284 trans.  The biggie here (that is NOT figured out really) is the 'spool' piece - it is actually a lathe turned piece that is hardened (stock) and I will have to settle for something less, we'll have to see what I can cook up.

So away we go and we'll see what we end up with today. The "carrot" is that when this is figured out I can start putting the engine on the cradle and think about installing it!!  O0

Gary: I did check out Rodneys stuff and it looks different. Can't be 100% sure but it looks that way.
SO...........
I finished my shift stuff today. I may (prob WILL) get one piece made up 'properly' on a lathe at some point but for now I think I am good.
I did cut some corners; was running a bit late so I did the "DIP" paint method..... ::)
and let them hang up.
I will put up some pix tomorrow when they are finished drying.

So next I can actually finish up the engine: new seals, gaskets, timing belt and all that stuff and get it all closed up and put it on the cradle.
Then into the car. Nuthin' to it.  O0

Geez.......this engine swap stuff is easy.......
 :D

well the 24 hour flu bug is a really fun experience. So much so that is sometimes drags out for 48 and more hours!! A new diet experience!!  :-X

But regardless I went out sunday aft and got a bit done. I still have to figure out how to connect the fiero shift cables to the linkage but I don't see that as a show stopper now.

So the first thing is to make up a cardboard template and a new base plate:
I was GOING to have the cables come in a bit more at 90 deg; ie pretty much from the TOP of the photo, but that darn bolt head really screws things up. So.... back into the Flintstone machine; play with cables, and determined that the cables would be fine with the extra angle as indicated. So base plate got made up.
I simply chopped off the 'mounting ears' for the up/down lever (pivot pin) and rewelded them onto this base plate.

2nd pic shows the up/down lever in place now with the 'select' lever being sized. It has to 'turn a corner' because of the new 'cable entry' direction... plus I want it to alignwith the other cable end and neutral AND be about the same length centre to centre so that is doesn't throw the shifting off from stock too much. This last I am guessing at actually but at least I have the lengths recorded and if I DO have a prob I will have that in mind.

So the angle is changed and the length is changed with that middle filler piece.

I shortened the select arm; this is the one that moves when you move the shifter from front to back; NOT side to side. I only shortened it by about 1/8" tho; since I have NO idea what the comparison is between the stock Lumina shifter travel and the fiero one; but I am hoping they are pretty darn close if not identical (which is my guess) for lengths of travel.
So this should give me slightly shorter throws.
The spool mod is the one that I wasn't sure what I would do, exactly, but after asembling the other pieces and looking at it work thru its range, I determined that I could (at least try to) elongate the existing groove a bit and I would have to chop off the pin that holds the spool in place. This is NOT my ideal (ie final) solution for this but I am confident that it will work well enough to be an indicator.  If it does work out then I will get a new piece made up where either the upper or lower thickness (ie above or below) the groove) will be slightly thicker to allow a new, full length hole for the pin to go thru and thus give me TWO pin shear areas for security and durability.

so here is the spools again; stock and modified. These are pretty small actually and that makes the work with an angle grinder a bit fussy. But work with whatcha got, I guess.
So it is the far side of the slot that needed to be elongated. I will do a test assy today (maybe) and see if I 'got enough of it"..... but it isn't that hard to do with a bit of care.

You can see the welded-up shift arm to the right. I dipped everything in aluminum paint. THat stuff is great, actually. It contains actual aluminum particulate which is a pretty good rust-and-corrosion preventor....  and it gets into all the little pits and seams where rust always gets a foot hold......

Plus I was timing out so dipping the parts in the can was my option at the moment.... :-[
Ok so I'm no Picasso.   :'(  I knew that a long time ago.

Finally here is the fruits of my labour......
doesn't look like much but it is, actually. Everything fits and works and aside from having to adapt the cable ends to this linkage (or vice versa) it is good to go for now.

NEXT:
finish up the engine (there is one troublesome oil leak with this type); install the timing belt (got it but should be interesting) and some gaskets and seals and (if the machine shop guy is back....) think about my custom intake (why now you ask? - because the stock one causes clearance issues to the front firewall...)

Then install the whole thing on the cradle and get ready to go into the car. There IS a chance this thing will run this yr after all....

Keep your fingers crossed!!
 8)

well I got a chance to test out the shift linkage and - without being connected to the cables of course - it works fine! so I am encouraged. I expect some tuning and adjustment of the cables when the enging goes in the car but that is fine.

First pic shows the levers set at the extreme 'rearward' position which tests the elongated slot I put in that spool piece and the levers will select the gears easily.
No binding or interference.

So that will do for now.

I forgot a few items related to finishingup the engine. I had deleted the pwr str pump and the A/C compressor. I also took out one pully from the timing belt loop so will have to replace that; it is the one on the tensioner and there is a set procedure to follow for that; so I need to read up. Involves a paper clip........
really.

I will have to make up idler pulleys for those two deleted items but that is not going to be that big a deal.  For now my challenge will be to get the timing re-set and the belt and tensioner all back in place.

2nd pic is where the pulleys have to be replaced with idlers.

and the usual oil leak source on this engine: where the distributor shaft USED to go...
there is still a 'dummy' shaft that takes the place of the cam shaft in the usual place. Then they have an intermediate vertical shaff running down (where the distributor USED to be........) to drive the oil pump. geez..........
so the cap leaks. Big well known problem on these. And difficult to fix PROPerly.....
you have to take off the HEAD to lift that cap off and replace the O ring.
So I am going to just lift the cap the 1/8" that there is room for and clean it up and silicone it for now.
The trickis to get it spotlessly clean and then not use too much sealant.  A thin smear will do; any more and you get 'grapes' of the stuff dropping into the oil system...... which is generally NOT good..
The yellow arrow shows the seam that seeps and the red arrow shows the Head bolting flange that interferes with it.

but I am working on the engine; that is a big step so I am excited by that.

 8)

minor activity = minor update.
I am wrestling with putting a new timing belt on and it is not a 'snap'..... and that is with the engine out of the car. I feel sorry for the mechanics who are allowed some ridiculous pittance to change the timing belt on these; no WONDER they don't like to see them coming and no wonder the typical owner drives it till the belt just goes...

anyway I have made up two camshaft holder tools and have figured out (with help from PFF) how to contract the belt tensioner etc so as I get time I will be struggling with getting the belt on. The key point here is that the cam gears are NOT keyed or splined or anything....... they are a press fit and are infinitely variable on the camshaft 'snout'...... so you have to be a bit fussy about setting them up.
Anyway i DO have the procedure and the tools made up; it is just a question of getting a bit of time.

I am casually looking for some 17" IROC rims (instead of my stock 16" rims) as a work around for the slight brake caliper interference prob I am still wating to resolve. (The rims are at the M/C shop)

So that is it for now.
thanks for being patient.....  I'm not! ::)
gp

well the timing belt is STILL not on but I think it is a matter of a bit of wrestling; the sort of big news at this point is that I DID get out to the machine shop and they are more than swamped;....... ie he said it will be 8 to 10 wks before he can get at my wheels. Hmmmmm

NOT that they are exactly a show-stopper at this point, but I really don't want to go exploring for another (shop) and I do have lots to do so I will focus on getting the engine in and wiring and so on.

I am thinking about replacing the fuel pump so that is another little item to tick off.  It seems that fuel pumps are virtually identical in their construction and size; it is just capacity and pressure that varies.

I have to say, the bottom side of this car is reMARKable for cleanliness and lack of rust. It resembles a 5 year old car more or less. Virtually NO sign of rust (other than normal oxidation from air) anywhere.  Certainly NO salt damage.
Nice.

on another (rats-type) front, we find we have about 6 new bouncing baby windows (yes, HOUSE-type...) on the way! No congrats necessary, thanks. This one counts as a mistake....... :-[  so we are NOT overjoyed by the news.......

so guess where the car fits into THAT pic?   :-\   ::)

well the timing belt is ON......... I can't say I am 100% happy with the 'apparent' timing marks (how they line up or DON"T) on the timing belt gears, but I have looked things over as best as possible and I think it will be ok. 

But Don Roger (ex-fieroist) swung by and I put him to work so I got somewhere today!

It is a CHORE. Had to take it off and put it on about 5 times to get it right. The belt 'tightens' with the tensioner a surprising amount and the first couple of times; ie at least a tooth on the gear/belt. So it was a bit of a challenge; you have to 'anticipate' how much the belt will tighten and sort of build that into the initial belt install'n onto the gears. Then when you put the tensioner on it; the marks DO line up.

So now to finish up the motor; get it closed up.

Tyler was good enough to drop the name of a guy who might be able to help out with my front wheels issue - thanks Tyler - so I will get at that shortly.

So a bit. And for now that is how it will get closer.

timing belt is on. And off. and on. and........
then finally when I was ready to tighten up the cam gear bolts I found out how incredibly easily the belt can skip; I was NOT leaning on the wrench too much and "jump"! about 3 teeth on the belt. So
off again on again etc etc.
but I finally got it right.
Lesson learned: the timing belts can jump their teeth REALLY easily!! It is almost hard to imagine that it doesn't happen really often with a 'reluctant' motor from time to time; ie the odd belch or backfire etc.
If you look closely you can see the marks but I didn't really go by them alone; there are "flats" on the cams that are the real indicator.
Then I took my blade tip on the soldering gun and fixed up my multiple-cracked/broken belt cover and (without too close an inspection) voila:

then get the cover ON...... carefully force (great combo of terms) the accessory belt tensioner out of the way) and it lines up pretty well. We'll see if it holds up. I understand that the 94 and up years had a better, stronger design and should bolt up too so I am now watching for a 94-up for a whole pile of parts...

then on to the pesky standard 3.4 oil leak issue:
(or where oil issues from the engine......oh never mind)
#1 shows the tight space that is at the inside of the "used-to-be-distributor-shaft" and it is tight. I got a box of Q-tips and found they barely fit in the space. But the real little patience tester was underneath the cap itself; you can see that the flange from the head keeps it from lifting very far.
Like about 1/8" inch or so. A Q tip would NOT fit under the cap when lifted. hmm
So I cut a few strips of cotton sheet (rag) and soaked them in varsol and carefully squeezed them in that little space, turning the cap as I went to 'feed' the strip all the way around.
Repeat several times; then rinse with nice clean strips till no dirt or oil comes out.
This leaks like a sieve if you don't get it right; it is right above the oil pump and obviously there is really good pressure there. Cause it will virtually PUMP oil.
Anyway
GM in their wisdom put a nice O ring in it but it hardens and then doesn't seal and you have to remove the cam carrier and the head to replace that $1 'O' ring.  Uh huh.
It is WELL gooed up now without (I feel confident) risking any entry of silicone sealant into the chambers below. Clamped and forget about it till it is time to take it off (full rebuild)

I am NOT going to go to any great lengths on THIS motor - I have another block and a  pile of parts for rebuilding if this looks like a viable proposition.  Besides I haven't decided which way I will go - turbo etc so I just want to get this in and get the wiring and exh figured out.

I am also backpedalling on the exh; I will try to see if the stock 3.4 setup will work as a time and complication saver for now. I may save my time on that for a somewhat basic set of headers but will see.
I hope to be able to keep poking away at it; once it is closed up it can go on the cradle and then into the car; even without the shifter hooked up I can do the electrics and get it running.

That is my near term goal.

Not knowing anything about the DOHC, prepare thyself for a potentially silly question:

Is there any reason why, the next time you have the heads off, you can't simply weld a plate over the once-upon-a-time distributor hole & be done with it?   ???

hi Don
the 3.4 is a bastardized dohc based on the conventional 2.8 etc 60*V6 design. It retains the usual timing chain etc and employs a 'dummy shaft' in place of the camshaft, which in turn drives a shaft off the back end (distributor shaft) down to the oil pump. So that vertical shaft drops in like a distributor shaft would: from the top. What they REALLY missed the boat on here is that they should have made the cap so that it could come off WITHOUT taking the heads off (or cam carriers; which are prob more difficult to re&re - with the lifters all falling out etc!)

I have been looking at it thinking about how it could be turned into a much more straightforward dohc by driving directly from the crank and eliminating that dummy shaft, the chain drive to it, etc etc; but I would need to have an external oil pump. Not totally undoable (Chrysler has/had external oil pumps I believe) and a great excuse to go to a dry sump pump etc if $$ is not  an issue. (It is..... ::) )

But my (very busy) fave machine shop could do up gears and pulleys etc etc to do a drive system at not too bad $$,  I am sure; it is a matter of figuring things out a bit of course but this is not rocket science either. Gears and pulleys don't exactly break new ground...

I'm really interested in reading your progress of using a 284 trans.  I am going to do the same so it is good to find your write up as you are really the only one with any info on it.

I'm from PFF and am looking at doing a N* 284 combo on an 88 cradle in my 87gt.

What clutch did you use for your setup?

hmmmmm
guess I have been truant.  Didn't see this note.

My project is in the normal winter holding pattern for now; mostly due to temps but a few other factors as well. Temperature is a biggie; my garage is so stuffed that I pretty much HAVE to open the door to get around the rear of the car/engine/trans/cradle etc etc etc that are all at that end of the mess. I mean site.

Anyway
I think the 284 will be a tough trans once all the 'work arounds' are figured out.  The shifter linkage and setup among them..... the clutch can be only ONE type; it isn't the same as any other, at least according to any swap info the local shops can find. The shaft size and spline of the trans is unique it seems so that really limits what you can do clutch wise.
It also is a pull type hydraulic setup so you need to get all that stuff and adapt it as well. Driveshafts will most likely need to be modded somehow; my rebody is over 5" wider at the rear than a stock fiero so that is in my favour but I am still likely going to be doing something with them. I think I have a lead on a good fairly local shop to do that so not too worried; it is just another thing to do

anyway
good luck with your project; keep everyone informed.
GP

What brand/series clutch did you go with?

right now i am just keeping the stock clutch; i have 'one or two' other things to spend my $$ on with this car so first get it running and rolling before I start putting anything to exotic into it!!

There APPARENTLY is a clutch that a guy has used but I know nothing about it (and I am NOT 100% sure he is using a 284!?!?) or has it confused but will try to look it up in my records.

I figure that the 'stock' clutch was made for a vehicle that was 500 lbs heavier and of course with the 215hp engine so it should have an 'automatic' safety margin built into it...... they ARE pricey!!

well well well
finally back after a hibernation. Not much progress except in the decision making dept. Last yr was a stinker of a yr $$-wise so had to curtail activities accordingly.
One of the last things I did was to take my (16" IROC) front wheels in to the machine shop to get the inner rims turned down; (brake caliper clearancing)

that hasn't happened yet and I have told him NOT to. I am instead going to buy proper 17" rims from centreline. Unfortunately they came to their senses down there and increased their price per wheel almost $100 each. Still a good deal; simply more money now.

So I have to 're-mock-up' my wheels/rotors assy's again to be DEAD-ON sure of the offset (they like 'back set') before ordering as all sales of custom whls are final of course. So in the next wk or two I will do that.

Means I will have some parts to sell...... sigh. 16" IROC rims (with tires) that I searched all over for.
oh well.
In other news; I had a visitor from Georgia; Rick Beem who has a "ferraro" also; and also with the 3.4 dohc and is planning on using the 284 trans; all as I am doing; was in town so we had a nice bench racing session and visit. Really nice guy and obviously very successful at his business! Thanks for stopping in, Rick, if you ever check this site!

So I am hoping in the next 2 wks to get the wheels ordered.
I also am in a position to put the motor on the cradle and bolt it in place soon.  A bit to do on the left rear suspension but about a day will do it.

With the new arrival coming end april I have to make some space in the garage so that 'forces' me to get the thing rolling!