fiero308 Buildup thread (LOTS OF PIX!!!! ; ))

[fiero308]

and this is as far as I got.
Of note: the most difficult part of this piece is the curve, so I did it first (more or less) and then will make everything else fit around it.

The grinder is in the pic as a memorial. RIP grinder. It started slowing down and then just gave out. No sparks or blow up; just slowed down and died. Hats off, everyone....

It was a $29.95 cheapo at Walmart and it did great.

So an unexpected trip to Princess where just YESTERDAY (I was there but too cheap ) and noticed angle grinders on sale.....

To finish; this is my 'centering equipment' for locating the new frame piece. I located the centres between both the front and the back cradle mounts and then used string and calipers to check from side to side for identical distances comparing existing and new piece distances. It worked quite well.

BEfore I trusted it, I measuered from side to side to the cradle bolts to verify that I did, in fact have centre.
(it was  )

[fiero308]

well after a day of thinking about things, specifically the fact that I am missing 3 of the 4 steel plates that do top and bottom duty at the rear cradle bushings, I am now considering Garys suggestion that I simply make them out of steel. That is something that (at least now) I have no qualms about doing.

He also mentioned that the 88's were solid mounted anyway and I have to think that THAT would be a reason why they handle better as well as other aspects of redesign.

So I am going to think about making steel bushings - not solid steel (I don't have a lathe and even if I did there is no need for such heavy fabbing) but I'll look around and see what I can come up with.

Busybusy with real work and so I have to take a bit of time away; some things are happening in the background tho so not all is lost.

[fiero308]

well I am FINISHED with welding on the frame!  What a LONG haul but it is DONE!
I missed the meeting; we had a family 'do' last nite so that took precedence. I hope to make the next one.

Gary (if you see this)- I sent you a note or email regarding elect diags for that dash stuff; LMK and I'll get what I can.

Anyway...... all reinforcement, patching, everything is finished. Took some pix but will put them up later. For a change of pace I started stripping the motor/trans I got last wk. Took off the A/C compressor (I won't be using it) and EGR stuff (not that either  ) as the car is an 85 and so doesn't have to pass emissions now....

Tagging the wiring harness carefully. Found that the "710" cap was very loose and when I removed it, there was HEAVY - like large particles - sand under it....... uh oh.
I often see engines in the wrecking yard with the oil cap gone; what a quick way to ruin an otherwise good motor. So I am of mixed feelings on this one now: I think I will clean it off, pull the plugs and squirt a bit of oil in the cylinders then see if I can crank it over jumping it from my car. Don't know if that is asking for trouble but it should hopefully just spin without a big torque reaction. Guess I'll find out!
The power steering pump which is mounted up at the front of the intake valley is going too; I know Sandy did a bang up job on his power steering install but I am going manual at least for now. Between those two items alone (A/C and ps) I am taking off 15 to 20 lbs!
I will have to put in dummy 'idler' pulleys to replace them but I knew that in advance. This swap is pretty well documented.
Well, off to work!
gp

[fiero308]

well not such a great day.
Pic one.
Pretty much finished strippind down the engine and decided to make sure it WAS a runner like City Auto (Peterborough) said it was. Hooked up the car to it and jumped the starter and.....
it was seized. A bit.
Slowly, after melting a screwdriver tip and bumping it both ways by hand, it started to move. And THEN.....
it puked up about a cylinder full of really heavy, brown water out of the #2 exhaust port. LOTS of it; all over the driveway (pic 2)  Oh well. When I took off the exh manifold there was water in THAT, but I was sort of hoping that somehow it was rain water that got into (only) the manifold while it was sitting in my driveway.
Bummer but not a showstopper.
I still have the first one, which I will go ahead and use. And the wiring harness came off in very good shape; alll nicely labelled and nothing broken etc etc and the trans HOPEfully is still good....... time will tell on that I guess.

[fiero308]

In other news; frame work is finally finally finally done. Do you sense some relief?    Had to provide access holes for the bolts to reach thru to the new upper control arm mounting plate. See pic 1.
So they have to come thru the back of the existing frame.  You can't see thru the top holes (yet) as the frame behind has to be drilled.  I used the plate's bolt holes as guides to get starter holes then went around from the inside to drill thru with my hole saw. I used this extra long pilot bit (could have used 1/4" round cold rolled as well) so that while the hole saw was drilling away on the angle it wouldn't "push" the drill bit against the guide hole and thus elongate the hole (while the hole saw was doing its thing).

Clear as mud; maybe you know what I mean.   

[fiero308]

anyway
some things i have to deal with; the shift cables come at the tranny from the 'back' now...
it being from a front wheel drive setup;
I put my S10 CV joint ends on the Lumina axles; takes about a minute once you know about that little clip.....

and here is the setup with the axles attached and wheels and all; to measure overall width to reverify that it all fits the body.
It will.  The angle of the axles looks extreme here because it is. I only have 3 1/2" of space below the cradle and I am sure that I can't have it that low...

thats it for today.
Gotta get moving with the other motor now and hope that City will be reasonable on this one.
gp

[fiero308]

well lets see; lots of little things. I allowed myself to get sidetracked by doing an autopsy on the engine; it is pretty easy to strip with air tools - esp when you dont really care about it anymore.
first one is a front view of the dreaded timing belt. Remember this is simply a 60-V6; in a lot of ways (not all) almost identical to the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4 pushrod engines.
 Top two sprockets on each side are the cams of course; the big top centre one is the power steering pump (it will be deleted anyway and an idler pulley put in); directly below this is an idler again and then below THAT - full of holes - is the cam timing drive sprocket. It is driven from behind; directly off the - yes - standard cam location (directly above the crank.)
So there is your little primer on the 3.4 dohc motor. Sort of a hybrid in that they adapted a whole setup to connect to the original camshaft location instead of doing it directly from the crank.
So that means that behind this is a plain old timing chain and gear connected to the crank. Oh well. It winds to 7K from the factory so I guess it all works.


next one shows the REAL difference between the 2.8 and the dohc motor; the head and cam carrier is removed from one side obviously...... lots of stuff goes into it!!

[fiero308]

and yet another look at some rusty cylinders and ... notice how the one that was full of water is actually the cleanest.....hmmm (on the left in case the pic isnt clear enough.)
and the worst culprit.

oh well.

[fiero308]

Here is one of the differences between the 284 trans and the 282 and others; this one has a long support for the right side (longer) axle shaft. This is supported by an adapter  that forms part of the engine mount; I think I like the idea. This pic might not be too clear but the 'second' part of the axle - with the CV joint -  goes out to the right and the left end of this bolts to the transmission.
The clutch is a pull type; something I didnt really think about till trying to get the engine and trans apart.  The actuator fork has to be connected to the throwout bearing so that it doesn' simply 'slide away'.
A lot of tugging and wrestling and it finally ....... well......broke apart. It doesn't look like it was long for this world anyway.

the second pic is another diff between this and other motors; it has a built in oil cooler. Directly above the orange filter is a 'can'. That is the oil/water cooler. Engine coolant is pumped thru it and so keeps it at coolant temp; which is usually nice and low for oil temps; IIRC they are typically in the 250F range. On the other hand you prob don't want it to get TOO cool (possible?) or it may not flow into the small clearances as well as it should.
I plan on replacing this with a conventional remote filter and cooler setup but will have to check out the connections.

Today got the engine apart from the trans. I am going to see if I can/should just keep/adapt the exisitng engine mounts to the fiero cradle.
The cradle: hmmmmm .......well I am now thinking of building STEEL bushings; I understand the 88s were solid mounted and EVERY front engine/rear drive car I can think of does NOT have this equivalent for engine and suspension mounting.... (double rubber) so steel is on the list.  Went out and bought about $100 worth of hole saws today (we'll see if I got the right sizes ) and will start figuring out what I will do about this.
I don't know if I will want to make more than one set; or maybe several at the moment as hole saw WEAR will be an issue. They are kinda pricey at the 3 1/2" diameter size and they do not last forever. Even the good ones have teeth break off sometimes the firstuse so I am going to have to see.
Will start a separate thread on that I think.

So I am at the point of making bushings and then painting up the cradle and starting to locate the (prev) motor and trans on it. This one will go for a spare for now.
gp

[fiero308]

well progress of sorts; I removed the 3.4 liter water pump from the trans and it is now down to a block/crank/pistons. I'll remove that stuff and visually check the block over for cracks, core shift and general condition to see if it would be a good candidate for a hi po rebuild.  Maybe someday I'll get to the turbo section of this build up 

the first pic is the bare 284 trans; you get a better view of that axle support shaft. The trans is sitting on a milk crate for a sense of scale; I am sure it is a noticeable amount bigger than the 282 I had and the 4 spd earlier on. It sure it heavier, which stands to reason. It is on a more powerful motor and working against a much heavier car.... so it would have to be!

Next is the remains of the Lumina cradle assy; I have to remove the motor and trans mounts and bolt them to engine No 1 that is still waiting in the wings. Then start placing it all over the fiero cradle to see how all this might fit. I COULD use the fiero engine mounts but I would have to modify them at least some to suit this even tho it IS a 60*V6 and sort of bolts up.

So getting the cradle ready is the next step. Poly bushings for now just to keep things moving along.

[fiero308]

well a bit done but the combo of very hot humid weather, being behind in house-type stuff and having to do workwork has cut into car time. I guess that was inevitable. To speed up or at least not slow down any more than necessary I am foregoing the steel bushings for now.
Don kindly dropped off some of the parts that I have managed to lose.... THANKS Don! so the cradle bushings are no longer an issue. What IS an issue is refinishing the cradle. My sandblaster makes SUCH a mess that I don't think I want to try to use it without containing the sand (which costs money too!) somehow. And the idea of working inside a plastic sheet enclosure 31C temps didn't appeal to me. So grinding and wire brushing was started. Boring and time consuming and slow. And the bare steel is rusting again almost overnite!!!!
So I am going to wait till I can set up the sandblaster I guess. In the meantime I stripped the 3.4 block and had my first real look inside one. Interesting....... how the GM mind works.
As I mentioned I think, this is a hybrid type or (better term) adapted motor from a pushrod design.
So the old camshaft, which USED to drive both a distributor AND the oil pump as well as being a bumpstick, is now solely there to drive the oil pump. LOOK at the size of this thing!! And I figure it weighs about 5lbs........ or even more.... what a parasite!!
ON the nice to have side....... it has a windage tray and if you know where to look, it even has the oil pump pickup brazed to the oil pump body to keep it from falling out due to ....... well, ANY reason. One of the old hot rodders tricks and a good one. Who did that? Dunno. I doubt it would be stock, tho.

So this thing has a regular crank sprocket with 'dummy' camshaft and gear, mesh chain with tensioner, then a timing belt that runs 4 'more' cams.......
LOTS of places to save parasitic losses but it would cost a bundle...

[fiero308]

just a bit of detail......
in this pic you'll notice some HEAVY, flaking rust.....
top two yellow arrows.....
yup.
that is the crankshaft. I dunno but I think when a crankshaft has really heavy rust on it that the engine should be looked at a bit.
Yellow circle is the spot of brazing that holds the oil pickup to the oil pump body; maybe never needed but really cheap insurance....... if the pickup falls out the pump runs dry. Like right away.  Not a good thing.

The crank bearings were all scored, by the way. No surprise there, given everything else.......

The red arrow shows a 'tube' shape in the oil pump. The pressure relief spring is in there. I am going to open up the pump - NOT recommended to be done casually, by the way!! the gears have to go in the SAME way they came out!! (ie you have to mark them)
But by increasing the pressure relief spring rating you can boost the output pressure of the pump. I am going to get a stock, standard V8spring (about $3) and compare them. IF they are identical (might be) then I can do a simple upgrade to an engine known for bearing failure for about another $3!! Put in a Z28 spring is all!

[fiero308]

well maybe a major hangup in the works.
Last nite I got the fiero cradle up on a suitable stand and then got the 3.4 engine/trans combo up above it. WOW it looks huge....... pix to follow.

Anyway.
the TRANS end stick out a LOT. Ie into the wheel well area. I am pretty sure it is going to conflict with the new frame member I have put in........   Does NOT look good at this point; it is going to be VERY very close if it fits at all. So probably not workable. I watched and checked and got pix from people on the PULLEY end (regarding 3.4 swaps) but since nobody has put a 284 in a fiero I couldn't get any pix on that particular item - and basically assumed that it would fit! So now is my lesson.
I will fiddle with the engine/trans and get them positioned pretty close to where I think they should fit and then transfer that to the frame and see. But at this point I am 99% sure I will have to make some adjustments. Damn. My oversight and now it is biting me.
The 284 trans looks HUGE in comparison; it must be a lot bigger than a 282 (I had one here and I am sure it is).

So maybe later today if the rain will back off for a bit I'll do some fiddling with that.
I am into a material management situation: the garage is so full I have to work barely inside the door using the engine hoist so that puts me outside in the rain and I am a suck.......

signed....
not happy in Ottawa

[fiero308]

Had a visitor; nice to see you again, Nick! I even wore my cleanest T shirt for the occasion! 

...well the assembly does fit after all. Nice when the theory does work out. And I have a whole 1/2" or so of clearance on each end/side but that is enough.   
Now to get it solidly mounted.
First is the 3.4 and trans sort of sitting on the fiero cradle. To the best of my knowledge only one person has done this (using the 284 that is) and I can't get hold of him for guidance/input etc.
Of note: the fiero cradle is SMALLER than the lumina cradle.......

I am going to reuse the trans rubber mount only as it has a curve to it that follows the underside of the trans housing. The engine mounts will be from a 75 dodge 1/2ton with 318; 2 whl drive version. I didn't make this up; it is a common mount for swaps due to its compact size and construction.
I cut off the trans mounting plate/area from the lumina cradle; it is already drilled to match the mount so why not? I will have to reinforce it and suitably attach it to my cradle.  Circled in yellow.
The lumina cradle was bigger and a
I should have a sample dodge mount this aft to check out. I'll make up custom mounting plates for them (2 req'd) and have to figure out how to attach them really securely. With only 1/2" of clearance I don't want the engine to move hardly at all.

So in the next couple of days I want to get the engine/trans securely mounted and then I am ready to start test fitting the ass'y in the frame!!

Wheels etc are NOT back yet from the m/c shop; I know they are busy and I have lots to do still..... 

[fiero308]

well a quick update; I have been positioning and making the transmission and motor mounts that adapt to the cradle and got the (rear) trans mount and the right front motor mount done; it is a LOT of fiddling and checking and remeasuring and very time consuming since I don't have the luxury of ROOM or clearance..........
I'll get some pix today but I am getting behind on some work so have to do that for a bit.
This part is slowslowslow but I am getting thru it; one more motor mount to go and it will bolt up!! But this is where a swivel joint on the engine hoist and maybe a tilt leveller would have been nice!!

The machine shop still has the front whls etc...... I am getting nervous..... since he is going on a lengthy holiday......... VERY soon.

What to do what to do.  I can't put my front end together if he doesn't get his work done.