fiero308 Buildup thread (LOTS OF PIX!!!! ; ))

[aaron88]

Loots of talk about suspension here.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048235.html

Aaron

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[fiero308]

You have all the control right now.  If you think the spring rate is going to be too heavy (I don’t think so) you can just move the mounting point in a bit.  If you think it’s going to be too light you can move the mounting point out a little.

Aaron

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well OK, obviously I am not getting something.  Would you please tell me (without knowing the car's weight, and thus corner weight), how much compression I will get with a 1G bump force?
And I will do all my layout from that.

thanks!!
this will speed me up.
Graeme

[aaron88]

Can’t answer that without knowing your damper rate and Δt?

Where are you getting the bump force from?  Suspension loads (the important ones) are dynamic not static.  But your instantaneous spring load will be your moments plus 1000, at the point of loading (if you wanted a static load, however dynamic loads will have a Δt).  All you need for the spring pre-compression is a very general number since it’s adjustable.

Guess at the spring pre-compression then figure out your geometry giving you a closer spring load number.  Then make your adjustment to the spring pre-compression (changing geometry) then re-calculate the spring load with the new geometry.  Repeat this until the number stops changing by more than 5%.  But the geomatry should be set up so that the sping pre-compression doesn't change the geometry.


Aaron

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[fiero308]

since the front control arms are STILL a work in progress evidently, (no calls from the welder yet) I figured I would show what has happened with the REAR.
The right rear corner was my guinea pig.  The goal was to get rid of the McPherson strut suspension.  There is a lot of .....background stuff here; this is my surrogate "FULL" kit car......probably as close as I will get to one, anyway....so that is sort of where the chop/cut/hack 'need' comes from......
So the first shot is across the back of the car, LOOKING at the right rear corner from the engine compartment (now empty of course..)

You will see a light-coloured square at the top; that is my new upper shock mount already welded in place.  There is of course a matching bracket that bolts to THIS and then the shock bolts to the bracket.

Next pic is from the right OUTside of the same corner; looking INTO the wheel well.  You will see the familiar cradle at the bottom (no Ctl arm in place) and then above it the modified middle frame member.  There are two pockets in the new frame piece; each to accommodate the new upper control arms mounting bracket.

[fiero308]

Now some of the 'stuff'.
Pontiac 6000 uprights; I got this idea from BubbaJoe a ways back.  The white one is ready to go and the rusty one has had the machine work done but still needs a shave. These are prepped to accept an S10 FRONT wheel bearing from a 4x4 version.  The 3 bolt holes had to be 'stretched' a bit and the big centre hole needed a bit of work to take the bearing properly.  Requires 2 differnt length bolts (qty 3) to fasten the 2 parts together.
Pic 2 shows the 2 parts bolted together.  Note that this is an old S10 bearing but the new ones will have the studs replaced by slightly longer and fatter Moroso 1/2" x 3" HD racing duty wheel studs to match the (now-modified) front of course.

Bolt pattern is common chev 5 on 4 3/4" centres.

[fiero308]

here you'll get the idea of how all this mess will go together.
Back to the frame; the 'pockets' will hold brackets which in turn will mount the new control arm.  The first pic gives you an idea of how it goes together.

2nd pic is the assy on the floor since I am too lazy to bolt it all to the car again.   

[fiero308]

This is the bracket I made up to bolt to the upright and to the two heim joints you saw previously.  I reused the existing big bolts that hold the strut to the upright.
It will also bolt up to the shock at the top.  Oh yeah; the TOP is the bottom left in the pic. 
Now (2nd pic) you start to see how this will go together; the S10 bearing is in place in the upright; the new bracket is bolted to the upright; the shock bolts to the top.  Not shown: the final top shock mounting bracket. 

I have made this setup with 1.5 inch built in drop if I want it so that I can lower the car by 1.5" for the track and then raise it the same for street and a bit more clearance.  I walked it thru my mock up and I think it is going to work quite well.  I was concerned about the short control arm length for quite a bit but after looking at a LOTLOTLOT of suspension pix and going thru 3 different 'mockup' versions (in steel  ) I am satisfied that I have a workable solution.

Again as with the front I am going to have to experiment with spring rates a bit and find what is best.  The springs I have are HEAVY - 650 #/"!! (they were actually for a very DIFFERENT experiment LOL) but I am figuring they might not be THAT far off the mark!

So that is where the rear is at the moment.  The drivers side has had almost nothing done so getting rid of all that extraneous metal is the next job.   
The critical thing here is getting that 'custom' frame piece put in place to exactly MIRROR image that frame piece on the drivers side.  For that it will go into a shop so that it is EXACT.

[cowans]

Well, looks quite 'robust'! BTW... I have 500 lbs springs in my rear, coilovers are (more)angled differently to accept 4" per side xtra width and is stiff using a SBC V8. I think with 650 pounders you might as well run a steel bar instead of struts! heheh! Graeme, if your using 12' springs, I have 2 spare 500 lbs(Chrome) that are available.
Sandy
Ignore the rubber in the 2nd pic, was used for trial fit.

[fiero308]

hi Sandy
thanks;
you might like my frame mod; it will free up a LOT of space in the engine compartment.  NOTE: there is no offer either express or implied in the previous statement LOL 
It will be interesting to see how it works out.
I think it will be pretty robust; I don't want to be thinking about that stuff when I am cranking it around corners LOL.
I have replaced my strut of course with this new upper control arm setup, but I wondered (and I know that "Blutes" will be interested in seeing what you are doing at the rear. You have an extra 4" per side?  Now what is happening with your rear struts; do they simply 'angle them' farther out -(as in keep the upper mount stock?  I have to think that SOME sort of compensation would have to be made for the increased angle induced at the upright when you put that extra 'lean' on the strut?

Can you take that wheel/tire off and get a pick?  This would be for others; not me, but it is something I would be interested in anyway.

My springs are only 9" free length.  I COULD use your 500's but would have to cut them down and reheat one end to get a 'flat coil' again.  Not sure that would look so good but will keep that in mind. 

It is true that it will ride VERY hard but I assume you have a longer shock stroke (you do with your strut) so you can have a softer spring........  I have about 1 1/2" of compression on the shock available to me so I will have to have a pretty hard spring; on the other hand, the roughly 1:2 shock:wheel travel ratio will compensate a bit but still it ain't gonna be no cadillac.........

WORK UPDATE:
went out last nite (pressed for time - school and kids activities are back in FULL swing!! ) and managed to cut out the LR strut tower and a bit of adjacent stuff.
I will be cutting pretty much everything off the firewall too; brackets of ALL kinds that won't be used anymore or else I will tack on new ones.  I removed the cute little fan and 'ducting' for the coil awhile back; boy is that ever a borderline effort on Pontiac's part!!
I will be replacing all the brake lines and I see the Ebrake cable was securely fastened with good ole nylon zip ties so it will all be redone too.....
very indicative of the quality of work this thing had...... wait'll I show you the "tail lites" that someone cobbled together!  You'll laugh your ........ well.... something valuable off!!!!
(coming in a future episode  )

[cowans]

Yes Graeme, the rear end is 2" short of 8 feet! Engine bay space?? I have lots..HEHEH! I'm running a LONG waterpump on my SBC! Seriously, you are right about the struts.... The Fiero upper mounts were cut out and replaced with a wider upper mount! I found some older pics that will explain it better.
Sandy
Note: the POS switch in the 1st pic is no longer there! heheh!

[dguy]

so I finally see that there are TWO 'thru the firewall' connectors to the ECM....... hmmmm nobody mentioned this before....
ONE goes right PAST the ECM and up toward the front of the car.  Guages?  Fans?  Switches?  back to the battery? etc etc etc?  I dunno.  But I guess I better find out.

The engine/ecm harness is self evident...  I hope. 

The one which goes "past" the ECM along the center tunnel is the main wiring harness.  It covers all interior functions, instrument panel feeds, exterior lighting, and so on.  There's a pass-through connector at the front bulkhead for the front lighting & HVAC.  At C500 it splits to one half for the rear lighting, and the other for non-engine management drivetrain electronics such as the VSS feed, charging system, starter solenoid, sending units for the gauges, etc.

[fiero308]

The engine/ecm harness is self evident...  I hope. 

The one which goes "past" the ECM along the center tunnel is the main wiring harness.  It covers all interior functions, instrument panel feeds, exterior lighting, and so on.  There's a pass-through connector at the front bulkhead for the front lighting & HVAC.  At C500 it splits to one half for the rear lighting, and the other for non-engine management drivetrain electronics such as the VSS feed, charging system, starter solenoid, sending units for the gauges, etc.

thanks, Don
as you can see I haven't dug into this part at ALL.......yet.  So in your note above, when you say the 'other half' (of the C500) you mean literally the 'second block' that splits away at the C500 so that ONE 'block' is for ie lighting etc ONLY (note: I am assuming EVERYthing here, not making statements...) and the OTHER 'block' of the C500 is for 'non-engine management etc'.......

is that right?
if so, then where do the ECM 'controls' come in?  I expect it must be in there somewhere...  for oil pressure/fuel pump linking; ignition control; injector control etc etc..... is that sort of stuff all run thru ONE block (only) of the C500 or is that stuff separate wiring altogether?  I have some VERY good wiring diags of the fiero circuitry BUT it doesn't show where the wiring goes thru connectors.... 

Bottom line: I can literally leave 1/2 of the C500 alone; a whole 'block' of it (lighting etc) and only have to use the wiring for the other 'block' or 1/2 of the C500?  Seems almost too convenient....   which is why I am asking.

I WILL have a lot of wiring to do; there are as you no doubt know, a LOT of differences from 85 to the 92 ECM I am putting in; it has 4 plugs; each of which is almost as big as the 'single' fiero plug....  but that is ok

WORK: I contacted the welding shop yesterday and he said he hoped to have something for me maybe late today.  I am getting busy at (real $) work again and so I hope to make some real strides in the VERY near future before my little window of opportunity closes till about March......  

This Sat is supposed to be +3!!!!!  Here's hoping!!

[cowans]

Graeme, forgot to mention... in the above pics you'll notice that there are aluminum spacer plates between the strut & spindle. This allows for an even 'wider' track without major framing changes.
Sandy

[fiero308]

If you have a chance, Sandy; could you post a pic or two of the upper and (more importantly) lower strut connections/adapters you have?

I am simply curious but blutes is prob very interested; he has a 355......

[cowans]

Graeme, not sure when I will get some new pics. The car is in storage (another garage) and I'm not sure when I'll get over there. Those others were old (3-4 yrs ago) pics. I will post when new pics taken... well, maybe this W/E, but no promises!
Sandy