Canadian Cryogenic/Ultrasonic treatment

[dguy]

Has anyone ever used, or know of a Canadian shop which does either cryo or ultasonic treatments?

Google's higher-rated hits were Integrated Cryogenic Systems (Calgary), and Exactatherm (GTA).

Am I missing anything that anyone is aware of?

[aaron88]

Why do you need this?

[dguy]

Not for the 2.8 or anything currently attached to it, trust me.   

It's for peace-of-mind & life expectancy of the transaxle destined for my L67 build.

[aaron88]

Did you get a price on this?  It does work but not in all applications and although they say it will make the metal tougher, in a lot of cases it will make it more brittle instead (stronger but more brittle).

I guess the best thing to do is call them and ask about the specific application you are talking about.  My guess is that it isn't going to be worth the bother unless you actualy do go though a set of axles and find that you need them to be stronger.


Aaron

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[fiero308]

you know, Don...........what you REALLY want is a nice, tough, Getrag 284 tranny.........
made to TAKE it............
stand up to 215hp and 220ft lbs against a 3400 lb car...........
think about it.
what the 282 is rated for and what it actually DOES.........


LOL


oh! lookee here!! a SPARE one!! 

[dguy]

Did you get a price on this?  It does work but not in all applications and although they say it will make the metal tougher, in a lot of cases it will make it more brittle instead (stronger but more brittle).

No, no prices yet; I'm just researching it right now.  I'll be spending some time on the phone and/or having a few e-mail conversations with whichever companies I find before deciding whether to actually do it or not.

It's not the axles which I'm considering at the moment BTW--it's the internals and/or the case itself.  I wasn't planning on doing anything with the half shafts unless they prove to be a weak point.

you know, Don...........what you REALLY want is a nice, tough, Getrag 284 tranny.........

... snip ...

oh! lookee here!! a SPARE one!!

Don't tempt me.  I'm working with the 3.65 4-speed which was a former resident of your garage floor at the moment.    While I find the gear spacing rather comfortable on the street, I anticipate finding the 3-4 gap a bit large for track use.

After everything is together & tuned I might start looking for a transaxle whose ratios are a good match to the engine's torque curve, but for now the 4-speed will do.

[fiero308]

I am 'mostly' joking anyway....... they are rare and I plan on keeping this for a backup at least for now...... I DO find it surprising that more people haven't tried to adapt/use them; I would think they would be a VERY logical answer to swaps: they were made to match up a much heavier car (curb weight 3300#) with a much more powerful engine (~60% more powerful!?!?)

but they can't be 'officially' rebuilt or serviced........ they are listed by GM as a 'non-service' item.

Cryo etc: yes it is a bit uncertain; the testimonials all sound so great but then they always do, don't they?
How 'tough' do gears have to be? A bit, I am sure; when the shift happens and you get shear forces thru only part of a gear (is that possible?) they must be under tremendous stress.

so it sounds like it is a good idea; race teams (some) use them but then they have 1/2 yr for service every yr........

hard to know.
how much does it cost to do a WHOLE trans? a couple of thou?
makes you think.

[fiero308]

any more input on this Don?
$$ would be interesting; I remember following a thread or two a yr ago and it isn't cheap I know, but they DO have to do a lot of work of course.

As far as the 284 business; I haven't figured out all the details of that so it isn't exactly a quickie bolt in option (at least for stock fiero bodies) - it prob is too wide and will require at least one custom axle for my install.

Was going to put up a thread on a custom axle place I found in Sudbury but the link was down and that is a diversion from this thread anyway.

If you DO get more info it would be interesting to see what 'stages' of treatment or prep they might suggest/recommend. That rings a bell with me; that you could do various items depending.

A 600+hp axle breaker would prob require the best and a 300hp "spirited driver" could survive with less, but "what" less........? What is the priority (or weak link) here? the diff? the gears themselves?

I remember seeing a strengthening article on the 282 'way back' when I first started checking these cars out; had to do with reinforcing the casing as well as other things but I have not been able to find it again.
(Wish I could; it struck me as a lot of good points at the time and it might apply to my 284 too)

[dguy]

any more input on this Don?

Not yet, but I'm getting closer to having all of my required tasks out of the way...  which means I can soon start putting a focused effort toward transforming a jumble of parts & scattered notes in to something tangible, instead of just picking at it when I have a few minutes here & there. 

A 600+hp axle breaker would prob require the best and a 300hp "spirited driver" could survive with less, but "what" less........? What is the priority (or weak link) here? the diff? the gears themselves?

I remember seeing a strengthening article on the 282 'way back' when I first started checking these cars out; had to do with reinforcing the casing as well as other things but I have not been able to find it again.
(Wish I could; it struck me as a lot of good points at the time and it might apply to my 284 too)

From what I gather, the weak points (not specific to any transaxle) tend to be the case (particularly the area around the diff. & bell housings), inner CV joint cups, and occasionally the axles themselves.  People running with open differentials whose driving style includes a lot of mixed-traction wheel spin also tend to disintegrate the spider gears with reasonable regularity.

One simple thing which should go a long way toward minimizing stress on all components is ensuring that all of the bearings are in good shape.  The diff. carrier bearings in particular seem to be a high wear item.  While the bearings are apparently easy to replace for your average DIY mechanic, they do need to be shimmed properly which requires a set of tools which fetch a decent pricetag; this tool set is also apparently hard-to-find.   

I think I've seen the Getrag-reinforcing article you're talking about; no bookmarks or printed copies of it here either though.   

On the possible cryo-treating...  once I've had a chance to grill the companies I mentioned above, and hopefully one or two individuals who have had it done which can give me some feedback with more detail than "yep, cryo is teh hotness", I'll post an update.

[fiero308]

......... instead of just picking at it when I have a few minutes here & there.   

 
Yeah that has been MY prob all the way thru MY project; it is SO tough to get the mind wrapped around the "where was I ?" issue.  For me, anyway.......

........
From what I gather, the weak points (not specific to any transaxle) tend to be the case (particularly the area around the diff. & bell housings)....

yeah that is what bookmarks it in my mind; it was all the case reinforcement; actually it probably wasn't too scientific; it just plugged in more webbing wherever they could fit it. Bulked up the case considerably. Makes sense.

......inner CV joint cups, and occasionally the axles themselves.  People running with open differentials whose driving style includes a lot of mixed-traction wheel spin also tend to disintegrate the spider gears with reasonable regularity....

There are several different products as I am sure you are aware for the 282 diff assy; some of which seem to 'address' the spider gear issue. I haven't read thru it all altho I DID in fact get a personal phone call - FROM a company (arizona maybe?) who said they would be willing to make up a LSD for my 284; just send down the carrier.... I didnt' know what to think of that!?!?!?? Great personal service or starving for work......
But that is so far from my list of priorities that I just haven't bothered to think about it.

........ While the bearings are apparently easy to replace for your average DIY mechanic, they do need to be shimmed properly which requires a set of tools which fetch a decent pricetag; this tool set is also apparently hard-to-find.   

YES! Setting a diff set is the diference between it working well and, well, blowing up on the next hot launch....

I think I've seen the Getrag-reinforcing article you're talking about; no bookmarks or printed copies of it here either though.    

I have searched for it and can't find it; even asked about it here and on PFF and no help/input; that was most of a yr ago...

.......... hopefully one or two individuals who have had it done which can give me some feedback with more detail than "yep, cryo is teh hotness", I'll post an update.

yeah. Isn't it rewarding to get "testimonials" from people who have read about the product and decided it is a good one LOL!?!?!
 

gp

[dguy]

It's been a slow afternoon at the office, so I did a bit of Googling.  Some items of interest:

• An older, somewhat slanted (given its source), yet interesting article about cryo-treating;
  
• Direct Hardening of steel & the effects of various quenching mediums & rates.  This article & a few similar ones which I have omitted note that cryogenic treatment is really only beneficial when dealing with alloys with a high carbon content (somewhere between 0.7 and 0.8%)
  Anyone happen to know what type of alloy Muncie made their gears from?
  

[dguy]

Well nothing concrete so far, but 8620 is apparently the alloy of choice for North American trans. manufacturers.

8620's wear resistance increases by 112% when treated @ -110°F.

Waiting for someone to get back to me with a quote before deciding whether to actually do it or not...

[aaron88]

It's a small part, it should be cheep.

Aaron

.

[dguy]

Won't know until I split the case and measure the gears.  I heard back from Integrated Cryo yesterday, and the want to know how big the gears are before providing a quote. 

[dguy]

Cracked the case & disassembled the diff. over the weekend.  After providing the gear measurements & approximate weight, Integrated Cryo. gave me a quote of $25 to have everything done.  I assume that shipping in both directions will be on top of that.

In other words, it's relatively cheap insurance against wear when adding a Phantom Grip or similar LSD add-on.   

Now all I need is for the replacement gear set to come in, because one out of the four in the set I have now is untrustworthy.  (more on that later)