F23 Conversions by Aaron88 update

[aaron88]

Yes.  Basically one is on the same plane and the other is offset.

.

[Dan]

I would not stress too much it is easy to modify your stock fiero engine mount to move the engine I would say half the difference in the distances then make up a set of tranny mount brackets with the engine and tranny sitting in place and that is it for mounting. There is a certain amount of play in axle shafts to allow for slight differences in mounting points on swaps.
To date I have done half a dozen of these and they are pretty easy to do just use 1/4 inch steel for all brackets and weld them nice and strong.
Only problem I see with the F23 mated to a stock Fiero engine is the F23 has a 24,000 PPM VSS out put and the Fiero tranny a 4,000 PPM so the speedo is not going to be happy as well as the signal going from the speedo to the factory ECM so some kind of speedo buffer will be needed. Dan

[Fred]

Hi Guys,

     Aaroon, I sent you a text message for a quick reply but i don't know if you have the same phone number. I had a question that I'm sure either you or Dan could answer.

     I don't remember what kind of clutch I need to use for the F23 swap. There are a lot of confusion on the forums. I wish to go with the Spec Stage 3+ (From what I heard, it is more streetable than the Stage 3) From what I remember, the one to use was the stock 2.8L 5spd clutch. (http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Pontiac/Fiero/1987/Single)

     Now the question that I have, do I need the "Additional Clamp Load Upgrade" that I'm guessing would be the "Super Clamp" Pressure Plate that can be seen here: http://www.specclutch.com/products. From what I saw, The aluminum pressure plate doesnt clear the differential "Hump" inside the transmission's bellhousing but the "Super clamp" does due to its different shape.

Thanks again for the support!
Fred

[aaron88]

Fred;

I already sent you a text reply but I thought I'd post here to also close up the question on this forum.  I haven't installed my clutch yet so I can't confirm the answer but I can post what I have found with my research.

The link you posted to Spec shows all photos with the "super clamp" so it's hard to see that the regular clutch housing has a taller profile, but from what I have seen others post the regular clutch housing will not clear all of the F23 bellhousing.  That's why everyone is using the high pressure plate clutch version.

You can use from my understanding the (5 speed) flywheel from your existing motor, but keep in mind that if you have an unbalanced motor and you swap in a different motor (balanced), you will need a new balanced flywheel to go with it.

Also to prevent the Hydraulic Throw out Bearing from overextending you will need a 1/4" spacer (spec can provide that for you as they have identified this problem and make the spacers).

If you have any further questions it's better to call the Spec tech support.  They are very helpful when it comes to pointing you in the right directions, because they have already gone though this conversation with multiple Fiero owners.  And they literally eat and breath clutches.

Sometime I'm sure I will have mine in and will then be better able to answer your further questions.

Cheers,

Aaron

.

[Dan]

The SPEC 3 clutch with the saw tooth design on it does not clear where the other style one they sell with just rivets on top has cleared so far in six F23 swaps some were stage 3 and some 3+ but all did not have that saw tooth design which you will understand when you look at the clutch.

[Fred]

Dan,

Thank you for clearing things up. It's good to hear from someone who already did the swap. The confusion about clutches in this swap is extremely high. I also talked to Aaron as well as reading old PMs you sent me, Every info that I have regarding the clutches are the fallowing: (I've also found pictures)

Spec Stage 3 or Stage 3+ clutch for a Pontiac Fiero 2.8L 5spd application. It is important that the pressure plate cover has a round shape, not a spiral star (Or saw tooth as Dan described).

     The first 4 pictures are from the spiral star design and is known to causes clearance issues. The bellhousing had to be grooved and even then it still caused interference.
     The 5th and last picture is the correct one to buy.

I'm in discussion with Spec to order and make sure it's the correct design for my application.

Thanks again guys!
Fred

[Fred]

(Couldn't fit all picture in the same post, here is the 5th and last picture)

[can machine]

Reviving an old thread. I have been reading a lot about the F23 swap for my 3800. Not sure if I should just keep the 4spd or go with the F23. It would be nice to have a extra gear while on the highway. But my 4spd only has 120k on it. Got to make up my mind before I order my clutch. Did you guys find it was worth the extra $$$.

[aaron88]

You can also consider the Getrag 282 from the V6 5 speed cars.  I used a later model from a citation (stronger diff) and used one of Rodney Dickman's FWD conversion kits.  But then you would also need a digital conversion circuit for the speedo.  It's still a good transmission.

The only reason I decided to upgrade was for the additional strength in the 3 shaft design (F23).

Worth the extra dollars is entirely subjective.  I never broke my existing transmission, but I was also softer on it.  I only did a few dozen clutch dumps from stop, and I would only dump from 2K.  After that it's hammer down though.

So if you never brake it I guess it's not worth it.  If your going to brake it, it's probably worth the buffer.  As for gas money that's a different argument.  But still then the 282 will do better for you (5th gear rpm wise).

Harder and harder to find the 282 these days.  That's another consideration.

What ever is going to get you to drive your car the most.  I guess that the ultimate answer.  I've been re-building my car for years and years now.  So one could argue that I made the wrong choice!  Don't take on more that you can handle in a timely manor.

Aaron

.

[can machine]

How did you find the gear ratios? This car won't be a daily driver, mainly for cruising on the weekends and autocross. Once I get into autocross it could lead to lapping (another reason for a 5th gear) I don't think I would go for the 282 if I were to switch.

[aaron88]

I believe I got the gear info from here:
http://www.fastfieros.com/NEW_manual_transmission_ratios.htm

[can machine]

After some research it seems most people favor the economy gearing of the cobalt(FY1) tranny. I'm looking into that now. Looks like you need to get the 2000-2002 Cav tranny and swap that bell housing onto the cobalt one. Does not look that difficult. Found some good info here http://ncfiero.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16

[aaron88]

There is more than one way to skin a cat!  That transmission is harder to find.  People like the idea because they don't look at the practical application.  As if they would really notice the gas savings after they drive the crap out of their car?

If you really want higher gearing you could do the same sort of thing I did.  I'm using larger diameter wheels.  That will do the same thing as a taller final drive.  Plus the transmission when I bust it will be much cheaper and easier to find.

Just say'in.

How do you plan to drive?

Aaron

.

[can machine]

Yeah  I hear you but apparently the internals are better as well. Plus I have to buy another tranny anyways for the bell housing so I would have a spare. But I know what you are saying.

Will I need a 5 spd shifter assembly  or will the 4spd one work.

[aaron88]

I don't think anyone has a kit that will work out of the box.  So since you will have to make adjustments to link lengths and stuff I don't see why you can't get it to work.  It's just through length and cable lengths and method of connection.

Good luck.

Post pics if you can.

Aaron

.